DVLA requirements for change to motor caravan

[Garywrench]

Sadly it seems that you need to build a coachbuilt to a pro standard to get Motor Caravan, anything on a van body is still a van.
Sent my application off again yesterday so will await my fate.
Gary

 

[David Martin]

This seems to be a very vexed question. I tried to get my (professionally converted) Boxer re-classified come years ago but was rebuffed. Recent attempts to do so carefully following the DVLA instructions have also failed. By definition, vans don't normally have side windows; years ago vans were sold without "Purchase tax", (now VAT) but if windows were added tax was payable. There is no mistaking double-glazed window units in motorhomes, making them instantly identifiable.
This is significant if one tries to sell to a dealer; a DVLA register search immediately identifies a "van". Whether this vehicle has been driven roughly around the country or is a carefully used and cherished motorhome cannot be ascertained and the dealer doesn't want to know. "Put it on eBay" seems to be the answer. Thousands of pounds will be lost in this way.
I know of someone with a VW Transporter van who travels on Eurostar. Each time he books a fare his vehicle is identified as a motorhome which he contests, but his registration indicates it is for Eurostar's purposes.
The whole system seems to be in turmoil, with DVLA website information at variance with and even contradicting administrative practice. DVLA profess that their purpose is to "secure and maintain the integrity and accuracy of the vehicle register." From a motorhomer's experience this would appear to be far wide of the mark and requires urgent review.
I wonder how the major converter's of vans are coping. Are they now selling their familiar models as "vans with side windows"? I can't imagine that to be the case with the likes of Autosleepers, Murvi, Wildax, Lunar etc. and the Continentals. Has anyone approached them?
It seems as though there may be much work and lobbying to do if we are to change things.

 

[Millie Master]

Maybe its time for someone who has been knocked back like above to re send in Pics with big cut vinyl letters 600mm tall saying "MY MOTORCARAVAN " fitted to sides and rear ?

As you can see, my sticker says BUILT not bought.

 

[Squiffy]

It would be good if Dave (Wildebus) told us what questions he asked in his "Freedom of information" letter/email to the DVLA, so that we can all see how their answers relate to the questions. My son will very shortly be applying to change his V5 to " Motor caravan" this is based on a Peugeot Boxer, and I feel he will also struggle with the DVLA even though it, to most "Looks like a Motorhome" especially as it does seem that something is brewing within the ranks of the DVLA. Phil

 

[wildebus]

It would be good if Dave (Wildebus) told us what questions he asked in his "Freedom of information" letter/email to the DVLA, so that we can all see how their answers relate to the questions. My son will very shortly be applying to change his V5 to " Motor caravan" this is based on a Peugeot Boxer, and I feel he will also struggle with the DVLA even though it, to most "Looks like a Motorhome" especially as it does seem that something is brewing within the ranks of the DVLA. Phil

My FOI question was about numbers, not policy. Once I have that reply it will give me the basis to a follow-up on the policy

 

[voyager]

It has been mentioned on other forums and on Facebook that according to the DVLA guidance it is a legal requirement to have a vehicle re-classified and the log book changed. If you have converted to the minimum standard as published by the DVLA then how can they refuse. The law has not been changed and if they don't accept the re-classification request then they themselves are breaking the law and should be challenged. I would be surprised if the DVLA had the right to ignore the law or change the law without going through the proper process.
If the DVLA want to change the rules then they should set out a process and have a date for which the new rules come into effect. I doubt that they can act in this dictatorial way.

 

[Garywrench]

I think it’s their definition of a motorhome that’s at question, if they have tightened that up to mean only coachbuilts then all panel vans will stay as van/windows.
Gary

 

[Millie Master]

@Squiffy, I believe you have the name etc. of the top technical bod at the Caravan & Motorhome Club?

Might it not be opportune to make contact with this person and ask him to have discussions with the DVLA as it is an issue which needs addressing, who knows the NCC might also want to get this issue fully resolved because no doubt several of their members who are professional converters of panel vans will surely be experiencing the very same problems.

Just a thought.

Phil

 

[wildebus]

@Squiffy, I believe you have the name etc. of the top technical bod at the Caravan & Motorhome Club?

Might it not be opportune to make contact with this person and ask him to have discussions with the DVLA as it is an issue which needs addressing, who knows the NCC might also want to get this issue fully resolved because no doubt several of their members who are professional converters of panel vans will surely be experiencing the very same problems.

Just a thought.

Phil

You would hope so, wouldn't you, as otherwise there is a definite conflict in the ways the rules are interpreted!

 

[SquirrellCook]

Sorry I still don't get this fixation with "section 4 D.5 Body type" This does not define the use of the vehicle. It's what it simply looks like. Along with D.4

 

[wildebus]

Sorry I still don't get this fixation with "section 4 D.5 Body type" This does not define the use of the vehicle. It's what it simply looks like. Along with D.4

Off the top of my head, the Body Type can make a difference to the following:

• Speed Limits
• Bridge Tolls
• Ferry Crossings
• Car Parks
• Insurance Cover
• Housing Estate Covenants

A Body Type of "Motor Caravan" would be of benefit to some of the above and detrimental to others. I am sure there are other factors I have not included.

 

[voyager]

In the past they have happily accepted professional panel van conversions and it is in the mindset of everyone that these conversions are motor caravans and this has never been questioned. I can understand them not wanting to accept 'luton van' and 'bus' type conversions as they do not represent what people think off as a motor caravan.
I don't see the problem of a home conversion that looks identical to say a Devon Motorhome or Globescout conversion as these look like motor caravans. Hopefully common sense will prevail.

 

[SquirrellCook]

Well done Dave, if anyone else has anything to add it would be good.

Speed Limits, If checked manually I would expect it's down to the discretion of who's checking.
An automated system is more interesting. I expect it checks against taxation class and nothing more as it would be too complicated.
So you would still have to respect the speed limits of your taxation class.
In east Germany a friend drove though a speed trap with no issues. Transit coach built motorhome. I got flashed in our Coach conversion.
He normally drives HGV's in Europe. He said it was a size thing and that it would not be followed up. Sure enough it wasn't.

Tolls, UK bridge tolls we have always been treated as a motorhome.
Italian motorway are nothing but tolled, mostly automatic. We never feel overcharged, but how does it know what we are?

Ferry crossing, Again, size weight or the fact we get treated as a motorhome. Never a problem.

Car Parks, These can be a pain. Of course size is an issue. On motorway service stations we have been known to use coach parking as that's it's taxation class. no issues. If the car park rules were to state "No Goods Vehicles", that would include motorhomes! Check your taxation class.

Insurance, we just declare that it's a former Ambulance, that was reregistered as a coach and has now been converted for use as a motorhome. Never an issue.
It's always been a passenger vehicle and not designed for the carriage of "Goods" As I suspect most coach built motorhomes are.

Housing Estate Covenants, I suspect this is along the lines of no goods vehicles being parked overnight, check your taxation class. Even if it's body type looked like a motor home I suspect you still tax it as a Goods Vehicle.

I like to know more about the criteria automated checking systems use. I suspect they are not that clever and only check taxation class if that much. Not that it's a Pink Motorhome with Big Orange furry dice in the window.

Mark running for cover

 

[wildebus]

Mark, it is a common misconception that the taxation class defines the speed limit. Sorry, but this is categorially WRONG. I am putting that in bold to emphasis it.

If you have a vehicle that is a Motor Caravan and it is under 3.05t ULW, you have car speed rights. No ambiguity, it is black and white. Taxation class makes no difference. If you are referring to the N or M entries, there are countless vehicles that have neither entry (two of my last three vans had no entry there).
Speed Limits in different countries than the UK - a different matter. We are talking about the UK when it comes to speed limits.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
And the key text ...
"You must not drive faster than the speed limit for the type of road and your type of vehicle "
Note "TYPE OF VEHICLE" and not "TAXATION CLASS" - and it goes on to list the type of vehicles and their permitted speeds.

Automated systems may well be wrong but it is a matter of challenging if they come up with the wrong info. There is always the right of redress if incorrectly charged and if you are a Motor Caravan under 3.05t ULW and get "flashed" when travelling at permitted car speeds, you challenge and you win.

Now Housing Estate Covenants ... if you have a jobsworth saying "no commercials overnight" and your vehicle is a "Van/Side Windows" then you will have to defend your stance and could end up costing solicitor fees if contesting and likely lose anyway. If it is a "Motor Caravan" then it is clearly not a Commercial and you can tell them to pee off as you have proof (the V5C) it is not. The whole onus of proof is reversed.

If a Car Park says "no commercials" then you CAN park your Motor Caravan there obviously as it is not a commercial vehicle. However, some car parks says "no motor caravans overnight" so in that case your converted "Van/Side Windows" is better . A local car park to me bars me regardless as their sign says "no vehicles over 3.5t". C'est la vie.

Ferries. Now this is a weird one. I have seen posts on the VW Forum that say some companies have charged them a surcharge over a van BECAUSE they are a Motor Caravan. Other Ferries it is a saving. Some use a database, some go by what a vehicle looks like.

Insurance .... plenty of companies will not entertain covering a commercial but will cover a Motor Caravan. If you have a multi-car policy, then they will not accept a van to be added (ANY van) but will allow a Motor Caravan to be added. Obviously plenty of insurance companies will provide cover, but it does means the options are more limited if not a Motor Caravan on a V5 (you did ask what difference it could make!).

I'll give you another one for the list from the recent past .... My old T4 was a Panel Van on the V5C and was the 800 Special model (so was 2.46t GVW). I could not drive into the LEZ when I bought the vehicle without paying a £100/day fee, but once I had it reclassifed as a Motor Caravan in 2015 I could enter with no problem and no cost - same vehicle, same engine, different body type. The Dartford Bridge uses the same database, so the cost of crossing that in the T4 as a Motor Caravan would be a lot less.
Makes Sense? Not at all, but that is a different discussion entirely.

 

[voyager]

Mark, it is a common misconception that the taxation class defines the speed limit. Sorry, but this is categorially WRONG. I am putting that in bold to emphasis it.

If you have a vehicle that is a Motor Caravan and it is under 3.05t ULW, you have car speed rights. No ambiguity, it is black and white. Taxation class makes no difference. If you are referring to the N or M entries, there are countless vehicles that have neither entry (two of my last three vans had no entry there).
Speed Limits in different countries than the UK - a different matter. We are talking about the UK when it comes to speed limits.
https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits
And the key text ...
"You must not drive faster than the speed limit for the type of road and your type of vehicle "
Note "TYPE OF VEHICLE" and not "TAXATION CLASS" - and it goes on to list the type of vehicles and their permitted speeds.

Automated systems may well be wrong but it is a matter of challenging if they come up with the wrong info. There is always the right of redress if incorrectly charged and if you are a Motor Caravan under 3.05t ULW and get "flashed" when travelling at permitted car speeds, you challenge and you win.

Now Housing Estate Covenants ... if you have a jobsworth saying "no commercials overnight" and your vehicle is a "Van/Side Windows" then you will have to defend your stance and could end up costing solicitor fees if contesting and likely lose anyway. If it is a "Motor Caravan" then it is clearly not a Commercial and you can tell them to pee off as you have proof (the V5C) it is not. The whole onus of proof is reversed.

If a Car Park says "no commercials" then you CAN park your Motor Caravan there obviously as it is not a commercial vehicle. However, some car parks says "no motor caravans overnight" so in that case your converted "Van/Side Windows" is better . A local car park to me bars me regardless as their sign says "no vehicles over 3.5t". C'est la vie.

Ferries. Now this is a weird one. I have seen posts on the VW Forum that say some companies have charged them a surcharge over a van BECAUSE they are a Motor Caravan. Other Ferries it is a saving. Some use a database, some go by what a vehicle looks like.

Insurance .... plenty of companies will not entertain covering a commercial but will cover a Motor Caravan. If you have a multi-car policy, then they will not accept a van to be added (ANY van) but will allow a Motor Caravan to be added. Obviously plenty of insurance companies will provide cover, but it does means the options are more limited if not a Motor Caravan on a V5 (you did ask what difference it could make!).

I'll give you another one for the list from the recent past .... My old T4 was a Panel Van on the V5C and was the 800 Special model (so was 2.46t GVW). I could not drive into the LEZ when I bought the vehicle without paying a £100/day fee, but once I had it reclassifed as a Motor Caravan in 2015 I could enter with no problem and no cost - same vehicle, same engine, different body type. The Dartford Bridge uses the same database, so the cost of crossing that in the T4 as a Motor Caravan would be a lot less.
Makes Sense? Not at all, but that is a different discussion entirely.

According to the DVLA the speed limits are defined by the Maximum Unladen Weight of the vehicle but how does the DVLA know what the MUW is for a converted van. It doesn't show on the V5 document and I am fairly sure they don't ask for the MUW when you apply for reclassification. I wonder what MUW they use in their database for speed cameras. I asked the DVLA how they determine the MUW and they told me to have the vehicle weighed at an approved weighbridge and keep a copy of the documentation in the vehicle. I have asked then again to clarify what they use for speed cameras and am awaiting their response.

 

[wildebus]

According to the DVLA the speed limits are defined by the Maximum Unladen Weight of the vehicle but how does the DVLA know what the MUW is for a converted van. It doesn't show on the V5 document and I am fairly sure they don't ask for the MUW when you apply for reclassification. I wonder what MUW they use in their database for speed cameras. I asked the DVLA how they determine the MUW and they told me to have the vehicle weighed at an approved weighbridge and keep a copy of the documentation in the vehicle. I have asked then again to clarify what they use for speed cameras and am awaiting their response.

For many (most?) Motorhomes, the ULW has got to be below the 3.05t (you can't possibly have 3.5t GVW Van with a ULW over 3.05t for example). On the other hand a 7.5t truck is very unlikely to be under 3.05t ULW. But the middle ground? who knows! the DVLA don't as you can see from their reply to you.
They certainly don't ask for ULW on reclassification and they don't record the ULW on the V5C. Which makes it so daft that a speed limit should be based on a piece of information that is not available to the authorities to persue a prosecution with 100% surety.

My own Camper has a GVW of 4.6t, but is a registered Motor Caravan, so could potentially be under 3.05t ULW and allowed to run at Car Speeds should I wish. Who can say?
Well, I can as I have a Certified Weighbridge ticket stating the weight (2.85t or something, but certainly under 3.05t). So if I should be challenged about exceeding the speed limit due to being overweight, I have documentation to show the ULW is under 3.05t. The 'prosecution' have nothing to prove otherwise.

It would make a lot more sense if they want to base speed limits on weight to base them on the documented GVW, and not the pointless and unrecorded ULW. So maybe use 3.5t GVW as a cutoff. And personally speaking, I don't think a Motor Caravan should have a greater speed limit than a commercial anyway as the actual running weight of a Camper or Motorhome is rarely lower then the average van it is based on and tooling around.

 

[JackieA]

Am still considering applying regarding my van - don't pretend that my build skills compare with many of the fine products of other members. After all my base van cost £3400 and has done 247,000 miles. It does however after several iterations comply with the published criteria. Before doing so I intend to add a second hand caravan tv ariel to improve reception and to add campervan appearance. Also intending to have external decals created to emphasise its use as a campervan - it is a Renault Trafic swb high top so too small to be a motorhome.
In the past few years I have never been stopped for speeding in those areas being debated, on the toll between England & Scotland the lady in the booth mere4ly asked if I used it as a camper and charged me at car rate. It is insured as a private non commercial vehicle. The only reason to apply is that the DVLA insist that now it fits their criteria I am obliged to do so.

 

[wildebus]

.... on the toll between England & Scotland the lady in the booth mere4ly asked if I used it as a camper and charged me at car rate. It is insured as a private non commercial vehicle....

Not sure if this bit is tongue-in-cheek or if you have actually found a tolled crossing (or maybe meant England and Wales on the bridge? but now free anyway)

 

[voyager]

For many (most?) Motorhomes, the ULW has got to be below the 3.05t (you can't possibly have 3.5t GVW Van with a ULW over 3.05t for example). On the other hand a 7.5t truck is very unlikely to be under 3.05t ULW. But the middle ground? who knows! the DVLA don't as you can see from their reply to you.
They certainly don't ask for ULW on reclassification and they don't record the ULW on the V5C. Which makes it so daft that a speed limit should be based on a piece of information that is not available to the authorities to persue a prosecution with 100% surety.

My own Camper has a GVW of 4.6t, but is a registered Motor Caravan, so could potentially be under 3.05t ULW and allowed to run at Car Speeds should I wish. Who can say?
Well, I can as I have a Certified Weighbridge ticket stating the weight (2.85t or something, but certainly under 3.05t). So if I should be challenged about exceeding the speed limit due to being overweight, I have documentation to show the ULW is under 3.05t. The 'prosecution' have nothing to prove otherwise.

It would make a lot more sense if they want to base speed limits on weight to base them on the documented GVW, and not the pointless and unrecorded ULW. So maybe use 3.5t GVW as a cutoff. And personally speaking, I don't think a Motor Caravan should have a greater speed limit than a commercial anyway as the actual running weight of a Camper or Motorhome is rarely lower then the average van it is based on and tooling around.

Okay so the DVLA have replied to my question about they determine the MLW of a particular vehicle and their reply was:

"I understand the Police, who are responsible for enforcement of speed limits, make a judgement on the weight of the vehicle from how it looks. I understand this is also the case with speed cameras. "

 

[wildebus]

and if they are wrong, any tickets gets cancelled. (I think it should be remembered how the justice system operates and any speeding ticket can be challenged)