voyager
Forum Member
Yes they can be challenged but it just seems a strange system when they don't know the information they need to get it right in the first place.
JackieA
Forum Member
Was following my son in law on his Lands End John o’groats ride 2018 towing a caravan with the van. Can’t remember the exact crossing but my comment is factual.
Millie Master
Forum Member
I wish you all the very best Jim, but I am sorry but I have my doubts, but having said that I for one will be overjoyed if you have a positive outcome.
Phil
wildebus
Forum Member
Strange? It's farcical. I would imagine the number of speeding issues in this situation is low enough that they don't bother fixing it.
The DVLA don't know the ULW of a vehicle, but how many owners do either?
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wildebus
Forum Member
Fair enough. That would be a crossing within Scotland rather than an actual Border crossing.
(It would be a right pain if they did introduce a border crossing toll - I live in Scotland but can see England out my Window so would rack up a fair old bill over time!)
wildebus
Forum Member
Looks a nice tidy conversion.
You deserve a reclassification but sadly it is unlikely at the moment for no genuine reason.
NickB
**Proposition for discussion**
SAY. two physically identical vehicles converted on exactly the same base unit and kitted out 100% the same inside same weight, TWINS if you like .
(A) Vehicle number ones outside "looks" in the opinion of the DVLA like a MOTOR CARAVAN.
(B) Vehicle number twos outside looks like a VAN/SIDE WINDOWS in the opinion of the DVLA.
*Whats the difference?*
Well they have different speed limit restrictions.
Can that be justified? How can a vehicles appearance (or colour) affect the DfT speed limit policy.
Apartheid!
SAY. two physically identical vehicles converted on exactly the same base unit and kitted out 100% the same inside same weight, TWINS if you like .
(A) Vehicle number ones outside "looks" in the opinion of the DVLA like a MOTOR CARAVAN.
(B) Vehicle number twos outside looks like a VAN/SIDE WINDOWS in the opinion of the DVLA.
*Whats the difference?*
Well they have different speed limit restrictions.
Can that be justified? How can a vehicles appearance (or colour) affect the DfT speed limit policy.
Apartheid!
NickB
Owen Smith MP has written to Julie Lennard Chief Executive DVLA Swansea reflecting my concerns.
Garywrench
I’m thinking it has to LOOK like a motorhome, interesting that a plain white van with windows and no stickers went through recently, mine failed without stickers because it didn’t ‘look’ like a motorhome (despite being gold metallic not white) and hoping it will go through second time - awaiting return post ! I bet twins differing only by stickers will be pot luck anyway
Millie Master
Forum Member
We possibly all ought to start writing to Julie Lennard of the DVLA as she possibly has never heard about this problem....................... My letter will be going in the post first class tomorrow as the current situation is plain bonkers loopy loo!!!
I do understand that they no doubt receive a large number of applications from people who have quite literally thrown their conversions together with not even a passing thought about quality or performance, let alone the darned thing looking anything like a motorhome, but then there are others, like the majority of us, who work damned hard to make sure their efforts look like something they can be proud of.
Phil
ps. By the way Nick thanks a trillion for giving that heads up, you are a star.
Millie Master
Forum Member
I have just sent my email off to Julie Lennard in which I was asking her for some kind of clarification over the confusion that currently exists.
Just in case you want to do the same, her email address is julie.lennard@dvla.gov.uk
Phil
NickB
I have just sent this email as well......
Dear Ms Lennard,
Please can you explain how two physicaly identical vehicles which only differ in external 'appearance' can be subject to different speed limit restrictions.
Please will you tell me what disscusions have taken place, and in particular what you have agreed with the DfT regarding speed limits applicable to vehicles described on V5c as Motor Caravan and those as Van/Side Windows.
I look forward to an explanation which hopefully would avoid the need to submit a Freedom of Information request.
Dear Ms Lennard,
Please can you explain how two physicaly identical vehicles which only differ in external 'appearance' can be subject to different speed limit restrictions.
Please will you tell me what disscusions have taken place, and in particular what you have agreed with the DfT regarding speed limits applicable to vehicles described on V5c as Motor Caravan and those as Van/Side Windows.
I look forward to an explanation which hopefully would avoid the need to submit a Freedom of Information request.
NickB
Putting a face to the name....
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/julie-lennard-appointed-chief-executive-of-dvla
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/julie-lennard-appointed-chief-executive-of-dvla
wildebus
Forum Member
Ref the speed limit thing, just a comment that you are linking specifically a Van and a Motor Caravan for comparisons when the principle of how they are applied are wider and actually nothing to do with Motor Caravans but with cars.
The speed limits are based on if a commercial vehicle started life as a commercial vehicle design or if it started life as a Car (i.e. a Car-Derived Van).
Examples:
A Ford Fiesta Car has limits for a Car, of course.
A Ford Fiesta Van has the same speed limits as a car because it is a Car-Derived Van (and is under a certain weight)
A Vauxhall Corsa Car goes at Car Limits.
A Vauxhall Corsa Combo Van is restricted to Commercial Van limits as the modifications to the body are enough that it has been decided by the powers that be (VOSA? SMMT?) it is no longer car derived
Switching it round a bit and maybe closer to the MotorCaravan possibly (but not really)
A Renault Kangoo is available in both Car and Van and the body styles are identical except for maybe Side Windows
However, the Car has higher speed limits than the Van variant because rather than the Van being a Car-Derived Van, the van came first and so it is determined that the Car is actually a Van-Derived Car.
The same situation is true for the VW Transporter. They are vans by design and are subject to Commercial Vehicle speeds unless they become a Van-Derived Car, such as the VW T5 Shuttle I had. It was labelled as 'Transporter' on the badge, but it was legally a Car and therefore I could drive at Car Speeds. The Shuttle is a 9 seater Vehicle. VW also make an identical 9-seater Transporter and that is classed as a Van/Side Windows but is a commercial vehicle (and limited to Commercial speeds)
This is identical to your Motor Caravan vs Van/Side WIndows question but nothing to do with Motor Caravans.
I'm just mentioning this as the response from the DVLA could totally and legitimately ignore the question about motor caravans as they are encompassed in the wider Car vs Van explanation.
You may get an explanation about why vans have a different speed limits than cars and this will probably be stated as being due to payloads (hence the weight limit caveat regarding CDVs). The Motor Caravan is just seen inheritating car rights I think and if anything would change it would be a removal of increased limits for that category.
The speed limits are based on if a commercial vehicle started life as a commercial vehicle design or if it started life as a Car (i.e. a Car-Derived Van).
Examples:
A Ford Fiesta Car has limits for a Car, of course.
A Ford Fiesta Van has the same speed limits as a car because it is a Car-Derived Van (and is under a certain weight)
A Vauxhall Corsa Car goes at Car Limits.
A Vauxhall Corsa Combo Van is restricted to Commercial Van limits as the modifications to the body are enough that it has been decided by the powers that be (VOSA? SMMT?) it is no longer car derived
Switching it round a bit and maybe closer to the MotorCaravan possibly (but not really)
A Renault Kangoo is available in both Car and Van and the body styles are identical except for maybe Side Windows
However, the Car has higher speed limits than the Van variant because rather than the Van being a Car-Derived Van, the van came first and so it is determined that the Car is actually a Van-Derived Car.
The same situation is true for the VW Transporter. They are vans by design and are subject to Commercial Vehicle speeds unless they become a Van-Derived Car, such as the VW T5 Shuttle I had. It was labelled as 'Transporter' on the badge, but it was legally a Car and therefore I could drive at Car Speeds. The Shuttle is a 9 seater Vehicle. VW also make an identical 9-seater Transporter and that is classed as a Van/Side Windows but is a commercial vehicle (and limited to Commercial speeds)
This is identical to your Motor Caravan vs Van/Side WIndows question but nothing to do with Motor Caravans.
I'm just mentioning this as the response from the DVLA could totally and legitimately ignore the question about motor caravans as they are encompassed in the wider Car vs Van explanation.
You may get an explanation about why vans have a different speed limits than cars and this will probably be stated as being due to payloads (hence the weight limit caveat regarding CDVs). The Motor Caravan is just seen inheritating car rights I think and if anything would change it would be a removal of increased limits for that category.
NickB
Sorry Wildbus, I forgot to include in my cut&paste email to Julie Lennard the subject line which highlighted the speed disparity between MC & V./S. windows.
Your post is interesting information well presented.
Nick
Your post is interesting information well presented.
Nick
Millie Master
Forum Member
My email to Julie Lennard didn't mention speed limits at all as I honestly don't believe that is the stumbling block.
I concentrated on like for like in as much that, and I quote from my email, "As you might know, members of the National Caravan Council (NCC) include the likes of the Swift Group, Bailey Caravans and numerous other professional converters and most, if not all of these companies, on an annual basis, undertake several thousand conversions of panel vans making them into small MOTOR CARAVANS and their V5C documents list them as such, yet in most cases their conversions look almost exactly the same as so many privately undertaken conversions which have been rejected?"
Apart from this long paragraph the rest of my email was short and to the point, I will let you know if I receive any response.
Phil
I concentrated on like for like in as much that, and I quote from my email, "As you might know, members of the National Caravan Council (NCC) include the likes of the Swift Group, Bailey Caravans and numerous other professional converters and most, if not all of these companies, on an annual basis, undertake several thousand conversions of panel vans making them into small MOTOR CARAVANS and their V5C documents list them as such, yet in most cases their conversions look almost exactly the same as so many privately undertaken conversions which have been rejected?"
Apart from this long paragraph the rest of my email was short and to the point, I will let you know if I receive any response.
Phil