Deleted member 4404
I think the 3.05 tonnes is maximum unladen weight
I think the 3.05 tonnes is maximum unladen weight
wildebus
Forum Member
it is indeed 3.05t ULW.
The tricky thing is the ULW is not actually documented anywhere.
FWIW, I took my 4.6t GVW van to a weighbridge when it was unladen but still usable as a motorhome (minimum DVLA requirements + Leisure Battery + Solar Panel) and got a ticket logging the weight (which was under 3.05t) so if challenged that I am speeding due to weight I have my documented defence.
wildebus
Forum Member
Ref the black emboldened comment ...
A lot more things would have to change for that to happen as the classification on the V5C has nothing to do what the MOT Station test. It may sound strange but an MOT station DO NOT look at the V5C, either on paper or on-line. And this is a deliberate policy. They test a vehicle as it is presented and not according to what it written on the V5C.
And bear in mind MOTs are done under the auspices of the DVSA and NOT the DVLA - and the DVLA and the DVSA do not talk to each other - either physically or electronically. Their Databases are totally separate and incompatible (incredible really!)
The first MOT I had done on my van conversion was as a "Motor Caravan". Before I booked it in, I asked them them to look and tell me if they would be happy to MOT as a Motor Caravan. They looked at said "no problem". I told them it was not a "Motor Caravan" on the V5C and they told me it was irrelevant.
It is this "Test as Presented" principle which is the crux behind the advice you see on a lot of Forums suggesting to people they remove Motorbikes and the like from ay internal garage spaces as the vehicle supposedly becomes a "Living Van" (which doesn't seem to even have a DVLA classification! I suppose a "Van/Side Windows" is the closest?).
If there WAS a change to make MoTs applicable to the V5C documentation, then that would probably mean that >3.5t conversions are still doable same as under 3.5t conversions, but the vehicle would just have the VOSA test instead of an MOT test. Simples.
Except ... one base vehicle type would have an issue .... Mini-Buses! >3.5t Minibuses can have either MOTs or PCVs done (my own one has had both when it was an active minibus) but once converted, I would imagine you would end up with a vehicle that might have to be a "Van/Windows" if it is refused to be a "Motor Caravan" and is not stuffed with passenger seats". Once like that, an MOT or a PCV is not applicable, and an HGV test can't be done either as there is no HGV plate so VOSA will not test. So your >3.5t ex-minibus could end up in no-mans land should this change to the MOT principle of "testing as presented" change.
wildebus
Forum Member
The comments from the DVLA saying something must "look like a motorhome" does not cut it when they will not tell you what a motorhome looks like - there are lots of people who are doing conversions that look identical to factory built Motor Caravans based on panel vans, and who are getting refused. And VW continue to produce the California which look no different from say a Caravelle bar a poptop - but VWs with poptops are gettinf refused.
Nah. "If it looks like a motorhome, it is a motorhome" means nothing if the definition of what a motorhome looks like is not provided.
Nah. "If it looks like a motorhome, it is a motorhome" means nothing if the definition of what a motorhome looks like is not provided.
Squiffy
Forum Member
Two things Dave don't lecture me on MoT stations I owned one for twenty years (5219)Was the registration nr. I was the Authorisued examiner and also held an MoT testers certificate I had three testers at my station. I have done thousands and thousands of class 4 and 5 MoT's personally I can inform you that the test regulations can change in an instant without any for warning all that is required is an official notification from the what was DVSA but now of course VOSA. The general public were never informed.
2nd as I said previously I have never heard of obvious motorhome looking panel vans or 3.5>ton vans being rejected you only have to look at photos that folk have put up on various web sites to see what would pass and what wouldn't , those that do pass could this possibly be that they looked like motorhomes. All I have seen is people complaining like mad that their van with windows has not passed the criteria.Well get a life the criteria is there get used to it or be happy that at least it has been changed to a van with windows. Lets also hope that there is not a "Notice" already winging its way to the national MoT stations. Phil
2nd as I said previously I have never heard of obvious motorhome looking panel vans or 3.5>ton vans being rejected you only have to look at photos that folk have put up on various web sites to see what would pass and what wouldn't , those that do pass could this possibly be that they looked like motorhomes. All I have seen is people complaining like mad that their van with windows has not passed the criteria.Well get a life the criteria is there get used to it or be happy that at least it has been changed to a van with windows. Lets also hope that there is not a "Notice" already winging its way to the national MoT stations. Phil
wildebus
Forum Member
The criteria is there, is it? So tell us what a obvious motorhome "looks like"? and what does a campervan "look like"? What about the VW California as a classic example of a Motor Caravan (neither Motorhome or Campervan are official terms with the DVLA are they as you know), so:
a) they should not be saying things need to look like a motorhome, but a Motor Caravan if that is a criteria to be met
b) they need to define what a motor caravan looks like, not say something does look like on, but when asked what a motor caravan (I'm using the correct terms here) they will not say. That is not good enough.
If you failed a car on brakes in one of your MOT stations and when the owner asked what the pass criteria was you said "better then you have", how would that go down? exactly. you work to a specification that is published and people both know what they need to meet it and testers know when it is or not met. Don't think it is meant to be a secret is it. The General Public may not have been informed, but the information was available in the Public Domain was it not, and there are various forums about MOT testing where there are helpful MOT testers that will if asked explain further.
a) they should not be saying things need to look like a motorhome, but a Motor Caravan if that is a criteria to be met
b) they need to define what a motor caravan looks like, not say something does look like on, but when asked what a motor caravan (I'm using the correct terms here) they will not say. That is not good enough.
If you failed a car on brakes in one of your MOT stations and when the owner asked what the pass criteria was you said "better then you have", how would that go down? exactly. you work to a specification that is published and people both know what they need to meet it and testers know when it is or not met. Don't think it is meant to be a secret is it. The General Public may not have been informed, but the information was available in the Public Domain was it not, and there are various forums about MOT testing where there are helpful MOT testers that will if asked explain further.
Squiffy
Forum Member
Yes many a time I've had to explain to crest fallen customers what is good and what is not, how I want to see it and if they indeed go to another MoT station their opinion may be different, I always gave the choice and even showed the relevant customer the special notice if it was relevant to their situation, but still explained that anorher MoT stations view might be slightly different.
But our trouble over the V5 is there is no other authority that you can go to, other than as I previously mentioned is to go to arbitration and insist that it is inspected or go to court over it though extreme and very expensive for the builder it would be definitive. Phil
But our trouble over the V5 is there is no other authority that you can go to, other than as I previously mentioned is to go to arbitration and insist that it is inspected or go to court over it though extreme and very expensive for the builder it would be definitive. Phil
wildebus
Forum Member
I feel strongly about misinformation and incorrect sweeping statements. Maybe you could help me by telling me what an obvious motorhome must looks like (you indicated you know this?)
But anyway, once I get a reply from the DVLA on my FOI request I will have a little more info to craft my next FOI request.
NickB
Quoting myself
"Distinguishing fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, opinon is not."
According to Mr Christopher Knapman in the DVLA Vehicle Casework unit I QUOTE verbatim from correspondence "We cannot change the body type classification. Unless the vehicle is altered to be identifiable as a motor caravan the Agency's decision is final" END QUOTE
I've got an appointment tomorrow at 10:00am in Owen Smith MP's Pontypridd office to find out what is possible.
Like many others I also feel very strongly about this.
"Distinguishing fact from opinion is that facts are verifiable, opinon is not."
According to Mr Christopher Knapman in the DVLA Vehicle Casework unit I QUOTE verbatim from correspondence "We cannot change the body type classification. Unless the vehicle is altered to be identifiable as a motor caravan the Agency's decision is final" END QUOTE
I've got an appointment tomorrow at 10:00am in Owen Smith MP's Pontypridd office to find out what is possible.
Like many others I also feel very strongly about this.
NickB
There is one Phil. Details in the sticky.... I've signed it but realistically it will be licky to get 5% of the volume needed to progress.
Squiffy
Forum Member
Good luck with that Nick, I had Alun Cairns round to my house with his personal secretary when I complained that Fiat professional were withholding the key code start up (If )the anti theft security lock appeared on my dash board, he was very affable and pleasant and assured me he would investigate why on the continent you are given the code on purchase of the vehicle but in the UK you had to pay for it. After several phone calls and fobbing off over 6 months I gave up, at the time he was hoping to get minister for Wales during that period he gained that so I suppose he was either too busy or " You can stick the red flag up your arse, I've got the foremens job at last" Phil. 
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Squiffy
Forum Member
I've all ready signed it Nick when you posted it, but as you say I had little hope that enough folk would enter to make any difference.I think judging by what the DVLA women said to me today they are going to clamp down on T6 type conversions because they don't look like "Motor caravans" either, she said quite categorically that they will not make exceptions be it selfbuild or not. Phil
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NickB
That is discussTing.Good luck with that Nick, I had Owen round to my house with his personal secretary when I complained that Fiat professional were withholding the key code start up (If )the anti theft security lock appeared on my dash board, he was very affable and pleasant and assured me he would investigate why on the continent you are given the code on purchase of the vehicle but in the UK you had to pay for it. After several phone calls and fobbing off over 6 months I gave up, at the time he was hoping to get minister for Wales during that period he gained that so I suppose he was either too busy or " You can stick the red flag up your arse, I've got the foremens job at last" Phil.
Honestly I would have thought Alun Cairns MP would have been a better choice... (not that I'm a supporter of his party)
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Millie Master
Forum Member
PhilNickB
I want to thumbs up/like several posts but my browser won't let me... perhaps it's biased.
RAW
Forum Member
So I have read this, which if accurate (it should be, it's from a UK Government URL !) pretty much sums things up
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motorhome
I guess as long as you abide by what's in there and do what @wildebus has said like create a build logbook with photographs and receipts and all the rest then any base vehicle could be used for a build ?
I am contemplating selling Sylvia and perhaps getting something that fits our needs better, the number 1 priority when basics are done is a fixed double or larger bed, making beds is a pet hate and as I get older it does not appear to be improving in anyway !! GRRRR
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...caravan/converting-a-vehicle-into-a-motorhome
I guess as long as you abide by what's in there and do what @wildebus has said like create a build logbook with photographs and receipts and all the rest then any base vehicle could be used for a build ?
I am contemplating selling Sylvia and perhaps getting something that fits our needs better, the number 1 priority when basics are done is a fixed double or larger bed, making beds is a pet hate and as I get older it does not appear to be improving in anyway !! GRRRR