Byronic
Alan, have you heard from any of these truck owners since you fitted these Chinese heaters....... no, I thought so!!How about their lawyers?
Only kidding of course!
Only kidding of course!
channa
i have rarely read so much rubbish and miconstrued ideas in one thread,(i am being kind at that),
When the day insurers refuse self builds,I can only imagine the plethora of threads bleating,
no one so far has mentioned at least to keep good side of an insurer bs5440 pt 2,,,,in respect of good installment and ventilation practise
no one has mentoned the output regs,,,,,,,,,etc etc,
if you wouldnt openly pour your shyitee on a public place because of the furore, why dabble with water heaters that through ill judgement kill someone,,,dvd recorders are for playing with, gas isnt
channa
When the day insurers refuse self builds,I can only imagine the plethora of threads bleating,
no one so far has mentioned at least to keep good side of an insurer bs5440 pt 2,,,,in respect of good installment and ventilation practise
no one has mentoned the output regs,,,,,,,,,etc etc,
if you wouldnt openly pour your shyitee on a public place because of the furore, why dabble with water heaters that through ill judgement kill someone,,,dvd recorders are for playing with, gas isnt
channa
sean rua
Thanks, Teutone.
I had a feeling it was just the fitter wanting an easy life. Nothing wrong with loft or basement as a location as far as I can see - provided there is correct ventilation provision.
I had a feeling it was just the fitter wanting an easy life. Nothing wrong with loft or basement as a location as far as I can see - provided there is correct ventilation provision.
vwalan
byronic .you see a few of them every year . just about everyone i know with a truck conversion as them .and the ones that live in spain.
best not get silly the paloma ones came with that daft hood to go on the top .they never got flued and were around for years . big business in refurbishing them now . not me.
channa read again my posts i said they come with details of the ventilation required .
heater output on a 6litr/minute .heat output 36mj/h.gas consumption .9kg/h.
there must be at least a foot between the top of the gas heater and the ceiling for free flow of any flue gases .
hope that helps you. if you know more please enlighten us .all information is willingly aknowledged .
best not get silly the paloma ones came with that daft hood to go on the top .they never got flued and were around for years . big business in refurbishing them now . not me.
channa read again my posts i said they come with details of the ventilation required .
heater output on a 6litr/minute .heat output 36mj/h.gas consumption .9kg/h.
there must be at least a foot between the top of the gas heater and the ceiling for free flow of any flue gases .
hope that helps you. if you know more please enlighten us .all information is willingly aknowledged .
channa
this typifies the problem" as you can see" and it appears others to varying levels of incompetence share the same ignorance/arrogance your are offering,
the fitter
Byronic
Read the threads again on page 2 I allude to possible insurer problems, and as we were discussing whether or not to fit a flue particularly to that aspect. I also state that it would be stupid to contravene manufacturers instructions. In other posts I also make mention that it's inadvisable to buy a gas appliance without a recognised approval by a responsible body, have another read through.
I think you'll agree I've put the counter argument to the posts you consider promote unsafe practises?
It's up to people to make up their own minds and judgements.
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sean rua
Sorry, Channa,
I don't quite understand your point.
I admit my ignorance on this subject, but that's why I was asking some " off-topic" questions to Teutone.
Any "offering of arrogance" wasn't coming from me, imo, but, hey, ho, there we go.
I'll have to guess here, but, "as far as I can see", you must feel that there is, indeed, a problem with siting a gas heater in a basement or loft.
Fair enough. I just wondered why.
sean rua.
I don't quite understand your point.
I admit my ignorance on this subject, but that's why I was asking some " off-topic" questions to Teutone.
Any "offering of arrogance" wasn't coming from me, imo, but, hey, ho, there we go.
I'll have to guess here, but, "as far as I can see", you must feel that there is, indeed, a problem with siting a gas heater in a basement or loft.
Fair enough. I just wondered why.
sean rua.
Teutone
80% of boilers / gas heatings / oil heatings in Germany are installed in the basement. Can't see what problem this could cause? Enough air in, flue out.
Many combi boilers in the UK are installed right in the kitchen. Find that more of a worry to be honest.
channa
Byronic
LPG and Natural Town gas being heavier than air can be a problem in spaces below ground level ie venting to the exterior should there be a leak. Germany may have ways to get around this problem eg auto gas sensing extractor fans.
vwalan
hi channa ,they may well do, mine was the last one of them i bought. it went wrong in spain one year, had difficulty getting a new pilot jet in the fagor outlets . went to the factory they fixed it . and that was ideal. all checked and working fine .still is . i then went on to fagor or the carrefour own make. carreba or something . but in the last 10yrs i used the chinese versions . find them ideal. more compact than the others and self ignition .saves keeping a pilot lit .or lighting it for a shower like i do. dont like leaving the pilot on. always liked the polamina ones but even the refurbished ones arent cheap anymore.
things do change , have a mate here that has a baby belling cooker and oven ,hard to find these days . he found one in germany brand new in a hardware shop .lucky man i said.
gas lights also can be difficult to get.again most of my mates use them in their trucks now . gives a real nice light . shame the mantle manufacturer in malta as packed in . but you can get chinese ones from a man i know in yorkshire. or do you know of a supply of no.2 mantles .veritas were the makers before.
things do change , have a mate here that has a baby belling cooker and oven ,hard to find these days . he found one in germany brand new in a hardware shop .lucky man i said.
gas lights also can be difficult to get.again most of my mates use them in their trucks now . gives a real nice light . shame the mantle manufacturer in malta as packed in . but you can get chinese ones from a man i know in yorkshire. or do you know of a supply of no.2 mantles .veritas were the makers before.
mitzimad
Wow!
I can honestly say I just don't know what to think now.
Anyway, off-topic, but for Teutone:
I was very interested in your post both about the German house and also about your current project. Though not particularly keen on houses, my long-held view is that cellars and basements are ideal for furnaces or central heat sources.
Yet, I find that in the UK, this seems to be against the law. The fear of gases seems to be the chief worry.
Second, you mentioned having a boiler in the loft. Again, very sensible , imo. However, my daughter in London was told that this, too, was against the law. I don't know why.
Obviously, things change, including technology and the law, but I would appreciate your thoughts on these issues, please?
In fact, both situations ( over and under) may be perfectly acceptable nowadays. Also, I understand that so much in life is opinion, so I welcome multifarious viewpoints. That said, I'm a stubborn and cranky old bggr, and usually do what I think is best inb the end.
sean rua.
no reason you cant fit boilers in loft or cellars assuming its natural gas not allowed lpg in cellars but loft would be fine
only problem with cellar instals in uk is most of our boilers are now fan flued and condensating which means we need a waste to remove condensate which can be a problem unless you incorperate a pump
routes for flues can also be difficult fron cellars
i belive germany still use a lot of open flued boilers ?
channa
Sorry Sean I lost connection half way through writing my thread
This answers alans comment too,all water heaters and gas fires to comply with the current en standard need to be room sealed in caravans and motorhomes so instant water heaters like the morco are a non. Starter
The ventilation requirements for caravans and motorhomes differ too
If you wish I shall expand my answer when I have more time
Channa
This answers alans comment too,all water heaters and gas fires to comply with the current en standard need to be room sealed in caravans and motorhomes so instant water heaters like the morco are a non. Starter
The ventilation requirements for caravans and motorhomes differ too
If you wish I shall expand my answer when I have more time
Channa
Teutone
I would very much appreciate if you could explain more or point me in the right direction. I not intend to fit anything to my MH which doesn't comply to regulations.
-- I want my MH to be safe
-- I do not intend to blow myself up or harm myself etc
-- I want my insurance to be valid without any exception
If I can't achieve this, I will leave the Truma hot water boiler installed, period.
Byronic
Do they still use Town Gas in Germany ie Coal Gas. As this of course is about half the density of air, so could be considered safe?
vwalan
hi. yes details woukld be nice .itried to find the regs on line but havent managed it yet . i looked on the morco site seems the paloma heaters were from japan way back in 1970 .,morco were the distributers . i spoke to morco and was told they dont sell them for m,homes but they can be fitted in statics given certain conditions , but were a bit vague. i dont want to be risking lives either .so would like toread the regs. like i say started fitting them years ago before the regs and just carried on . the paloma ones were great but new ones finished years ago. be very usefull if you could .thanks.
Teutone
Every system has to be checked annually by the locally appointed "chimney sweeper". They are still called this
They check the whole system for leaks and the EMMISSIONS! System fails, no permission to run.
they use "Erdgas" which is mostly Methan and small percentages of propane, butane and other stuff.
Or "heating oil" = red diesel (more cost effective in Germany than Gas and more widely used)
There are far more regulations about this in Germany than in the UK, when I moved into the house in the UK I was simply shocked how ancient und unefficient the heating system was.
But this post wasn't about how different countries heating systems work, it's about fitting an on demand water heater to a MH and the implications.
sean rua
Thanks to all for the replies.
I, too, look forward to reading some more details. I suppose it would be stretching a point to ask about the acceptability of these morco type things in a separate, external, housing?
Sounds a bit silly, I guess, but, as I do most of my cooking outside, perhaps it's not so daft.
I'm old school and don't mind carrying water ( hot or cold).
Obviously, most of what I do went out with the horse and cart and I admit it's getting harder every day, but that's the result of old age, which comes to us all, if we live long enough.
When it all gets too much, I do have a house to use. I hate it, even though it has no mortgage or rent to pay.
Twenty years ago, I put in it a Stanley Superstar that was supposed to be the dog's bollix. It was supposed to do thirteen radiators, hot water, bake a cake and cook the porage, all at the same time.
In reality, 'twas one of the worse things I ever wasted my money on! A balanced flue ( pipe through the wall; no fumes inside) gave endless trouble, though Stanley and their EXPERT FITTERS assured me the thing was designed to work anywhere, including an Irish mountain top!
Anyway, after spending as much on maintenance as on purchase price, forgive me if I come across as one who thinks there's a load of baloney spouted in the "heating engineering" game.
At the end of the day, there are only three things a gas appliance can do to harm a man:
It can explode, or, it can gas him with leaks.
Oh , yeah, I said three things: the third penance is that it can near bust ya with expense! Over the years, we changed citrometers, thermostats galore, fans, fuses, distributors, baffles, the jewson lot.
The two major problems with this over-rated rocket burner turned out to be
a) a simple ball valve sticking in the pressure -balancer ( remedy = blow and suck on a short tube to free it)
b) a dead spider blocking a narrow capillary in the air -intake ( remedy = remove 'kin dead spider).
OK, that monstrosity is a far cry from my old tin rocket stove, but , though lacking in convenience and being very slow, the rocket stove owes me nothing, whereas the Stanley has cost me over £10K and a lot of discomfort.
However, as I can't really afford a Sam y Solar yet, I need to make plenty more enquiries before I commit again to anything more than just a gas ring .
I'll get there in the end! ( with a little help from my friends).
sean rua.
I, too, look forward to reading some more details. I suppose it would be stretching a point to ask about the acceptability of these morco type things in a separate, external, housing?
Sounds a bit silly, I guess, but, as I do most of my cooking outside, perhaps it's not so daft.
I'm old school and don't mind carrying water ( hot or cold).
Obviously, most of what I do went out with the horse and cart and I admit it's getting harder every day, but that's the result of old age, which comes to us all, if we live long enough.
When it all gets too much, I do have a house to use. I hate it, even though it has no mortgage or rent to pay.
Twenty years ago, I put in it a Stanley Superstar that was supposed to be the dog's bollix. It was supposed to do thirteen radiators, hot water, bake a cake and cook the porage, all at the same time.
In reality, 'twas one of the worse things I ever wasted my money on! A balanced flue ( pipe through the wall; no fumes inside) gave endless trouble, though Stanley and their EXPERT FITTERS assured me the thing was designed to work anywhere, including an Irish mountain top!
Anyway, after spending as much on maintenance as on purchase price, forgive me if I come across as one who thinks there's a load of baloney spouted in the "heating engineering" game.
At the end of the day, there are only three things a gas appliance can do to harm a man:
It can explode, or, it can gas him with leaks.
Oh , yeah, I said three things: the third penance is that it can near bust ya with expense! Over the years, we changed citrometers, thermostats galore, fans, fuses, distributors, baffles, the jewson lot.
The two major problems with this over-rated rocket burner turned out to be
a) a simple ball valve sticking in the pressure -balancer ( remedy = blow and suck on a short tube to free it)
b) a dead spider blocking a narrow capillary in the air -intake ( remedy = remove 'kin dead spider).
OK, that monstrosity is a far cry from my old tin rocket stove, but , though lacking in convenience and being very slow, the rocket stove owes me nothing, whereas the Stanley has cost me over £10K and a lot of discomfort.
However, as I can't really afford a Sam y Solar yet, I need to make plenty more enquiries before I commit again to anything more than just a gas ring .
I'll get there in the end! ( with a little help from my friends).
sean rua.
Byronic
Perhaps not , but most threads when they run out of gas or steam veer into "associated" areas often more interesting than the original specific thread subject and it saves starting up another thread, that seems ok to me. Other views may differ.
channa
OK for Teutone, Alan and Sean on the basis I cant multiquote I will attempt to answer in one thread.
In the Autumn of 2002, the standard of EN1949 came about
EN1949 ( specification for the installation of LPG systems for habitation purposes in Leisure accomodation vehicles and in other road vehicles )
It also introduced other standards namely EN721 regarding ventilation and EN12864 which deals with regulators.
I quote from the regs.
10.4 Water Heaters
10.4.1 water heaters in caravans and motor caravans shall be of the room sealed type ( hence morcos are a no no )
10.4.2 In mobile homes room sealed appliances are preferred , but open flued appliances are acceptable provided ther following is complied with
1 appliance manufacturers iunstructions are complied with and national legislation regarding positioning ,flueing ,ventilation and surface overheating are adhered to.
2 Open flued water heaters shall nort be installed in bedrooms (principally designed for sleeping and excluding principal habitation areas) bathroom, showers or toilets>The only exception is where the appliance is installed in a compartment which is sealed from the room and ventilation is to the exterior of the mobile home .Access for maintenance shall be from an external access door
(Alan this explains Morcos policy and reticence to comment ?
EN 721 differentiates ventilatiation requirements between mobiles (statics) and caravans and motorhomes, Motorhomes because of exhausts running gear and the natural proximity in respect of space ventilation calculations differ.
Now is where it gets complicated<
All qualified gas engineers, fall under the scope of RIDDOR health and Safety Executive regulations>
eg If I casually change a gas bottle for a customer, and as part of it purge the system to get a pilot light in a static for example on their Morco but in that process I see inadequate ventilation, inappropriate fittings etc etc The engineer cant ignore and dependant upon severity of the problem can prohibit use of the appliance to advising ....lets not go there> there are so many variables>
Naturally as alluded to by byronic and myself this can have serious insurance implications
regards
Channa