on demand water heater install

[Byronic]

An interesting thread and a bit spooky as I often wonder why they are not widely used in homes as well. If I could fit one at home, in the kitchen, I would and might do it when we do a revamp.

They went out of favour mainly because modern demands meant that hot water was often required simultaneously at several places and even the biggest instantaneous heaters called multipionts could only supply 3 taps or so at once and at a reduced flow rate. People weren't keen to have possibly 3 of these heaters to obviate that prob. they don't exactly look fashionable.

Also their efficiency isn't the best, a lot of heat goes up the flue, and if you constantly turn them of and on you are also having to reheat the metal water tube. additionally the water has to flow for a while before its at the predetermined heat also the rubber diaphragm which controls gas flow hardens over time so they're not maintenance free.

Not trying to put you off but you did pose the question.
But if you need hot water remote from the main source they could be an answer.
In a motorhome I would say they have their place especially for the shower and maybe washing up with a kettle for everything else, but each to their own.

In hotels the hot water supply may be 100 meters from some of the taps, the hot water has to be circulated in a constantlly pumped loop otherwise a tap user would have to draw perhaps 50 litres of water every time he wanted hot water........ now that really would be a waste.

 

[Teutone]

In hotels the hot water supply may be 100 meters from some of the taps, the hot water has to be circulated in a constantlly pumped loop otherwise a tap user would have to draw perhaps 50 litres of water every time he wanted hot water........ now that really would be a waste.

15 years ago I build a house in Germany and a small 8mm pipe was routed alongside the warm water supply to provide a loop to circle the hot water around at a low rate. Together with an highly efficient boiler in the basement this was deemed a more cost effective solution compared to let the water run for 3mins before the tap runs hot. But only works with properly insulated pipework hidden in the wall.

When I fitted a new kitchen in our current house, I installed an electric instant wtaer heater unter the sink. Our combi boiler is fitted in the loft and it would take forever for the kitchen tap to run hot.
But you need wiring almost as big as for the electric shower.

Back to topic. I am in the fortunate position to fit the water heater in a location where I can fit a door to make it a sealed cabinet with own air supply and flue. Haven't looked behind all the panels yet but don't think plumbing the hoter water in the system will be too difficult. I want to leave the mixer taps untouced (sure will set the water temp not too high) and just replace the hot water supply from the current truma boiler with the one from the gas heater.

Will post pictures once I started. First the LPG bottle install.

 

[Tony Lee]

So that could be anything up to twice a year then Alan?

Thing is that if you don't flue the thing and it comes supplied with flue and it instructs you to install the flue then:
A) you would be stupid not to.... ie carbon monoxide reasons
B) if you have a fire the insurer is unlikely to pay out assuming you have at least fire and theft
.
OK in the good old days if it didn't come with a flue and didn't advise to fit one.

Yes, even worse is crowing abvout doing the same with a heater with a pilot light.
A third possibility is that he specialises in giving dangerous advice regardless of the fact that the majority of readers don't have the technical knowledge to realise that in most matters relating to LPG he is basically a forum troll.

 

[Byronic]

Teutone, I can see the relevance of your user name now. a seperate small bore loop is the same simple solution as used in large buildings and good insulation alongside the shortest pipe runs are the critical factors.
Albeit that long lengths of microbore can't be used due to the high pump, pressure needed to overcome frictional resistance.

Hiding the heater in a cupboard is of course a good idea if you can, the modern types look quite good, it's mainly the exposed pipework that isn't exactly Bahaus.

 

[sean rua]

Wow!

I can honestly say I just don't know what to think now.

Anyway, off-topic, but for Teutone:

I was very interested in your post both about the German house and also about your current project. Though not particularly keen on houses, my long-held view is that cellars and basements are ideal for furnaces or central heat sources.
Yet, I find that in the UK, this seems to be against the law. The fear of gases seems to be the chief worry.

Second, you mentioned having a boiler in the loft. Again, very sensible , imo. However, my daughter in London was told that this, too, was against the law. I don't know why.

Obviously, things change, including technology and the law, but I would appreciate your thoughts on these issues, please?
In fact, both situations ( over and under) may be perfectly acceptable nowadays. Also, I understand that so much in life is opinion, so I welcome multifarious viewpoints. That said, I'm a stubborn and cranky old bggr, and usually do what I think is best inb the end.

sean rua.

 

[Byronic]

hi yes the water heaters are all to iso9001/2000. i checked with the chinese manufacturer about importing direct to uk . its possible .but if i order 1000 i can get free shipping. as i didnt want that many i get them from the moroccan importer. in less quantities . they are sold all over the world ,usa takes lots and you can see them on ebay in the states . they come with full english instructions and french of course. they can be fitted in the bathroom but i dont like that idea . morco/fagor do big versions but i have used the smaller camper style for showers at home . work a treat.
and yes using the controls on the heater saves extra pipework in the vans .makes sense really. they are still used in houses, but again with combi boilers getting cheaper houses usually dont bother any more.
for van heating you cant beat thermexcatalitic heaters .they have stopped making them now .but still make a blue flame heater with co,co2 cut outs . we use them in the bigger truck conversions . thermex are also spanish up near santander at noain in navarra . i pick them up at the factory as well.
i hope that answers your question byronic .hee he.
by the way its just gone below freezing here now . got to 5-6c in the day .lovely. think what you are missing .ha ha .

It does answer my question, but not in a positive way. ISO 9001/2000 are business management accreditations you can get them for for a couple of grand.
If I buy any gas appliance I want it supplied with at least the approval of some appropiate test body that I had heard of. Just because they are on sale on eBay USA doesn't make them safe.
And no I haven't heard of these heaters being a problem, but then again in places such as Morocco it takes more than a domestic gas explosion to make headlines!

 

[vwalan]

hi tony , i understand your views and if you read my post i do say i only use the heater when having a shower so its possibly on for just a few minutes . i only light the pilot light when i want to use the heater . hope this explains things . i did say i dont use them in the actual shower room for safety. .the instructions come with ventilation sizes to be used depending on the size of room. your remarks are getting rather nasty and i would hope we can not fall out. i try to be helpfull . if you dont see it that way .i,m sorry but i only try to help. i,m sure we both do actually . i,m sure byronic understands what i was talking about . and was joking about only using the shower twice a year. have a good one . thanks alan.

 

[Byronic]

Two a year,that many....... that's 100% more than myself!

Seriously though, you know how the Australians reckon you get a Pom quickly out of a shower?
Yep thats right..... throw in the soap.
It's their idea of a joke, at least I think it's meant as a joke.

 

[sean rua]

:lol-053:

I turned 21 in Australia, and it's true the sense of humour varies across the globe. Once a fortnight at the mine, they used to put on films ( movies, don't ya know?).

The crowd reaction was remarkable some evenings.
Pommie stuff, such as the Carry Ons, used to be met by folk ( mostly Stries) picking up their chairs and walking off ( It was all open air with a big screen set up in the bush).
Whereas the Yugoslavs used to laugh their cks off. In fact, one French bloke, Pierre, who couldn't speak a word of English, was heard to laugh for the very first time. His face was red and tears were streaming down his cheeks! God knows what he thought about it.

The dourest of the dour were the Kiwis, the Belgians and the Swiss. Never saw any of them smile once, but, hey, who knows what had brought them to such a Godforsaken place as the Northern Territory.

--

Btw, Alan,
I was going to get in touch with you about heaters and other matters, but I ain't worked out how to e-mail or PM yet.
That's if I don't gas meself first, with all the pallets I burn! :goodluck:

sean rua.

 

[vwalan]

hi. i actually dont sell them .i use them intrucks that get converted. there are afew on ebay usually i noticed the advert for the one on this thread the other day.
as for heaters .i use a catalitic heater . and have used the blue flame heaters . they come with instructions about ventilation and have co.co2 cut outs . they are also usually on ebay as well you can get me on 07971962361 most times .
i really just get them in to go in the conversions . years ago idid sell the thermex catalitic . but havent done so for ages . about 3 years ago i called at thermex in spain and they said they had stopped making them as demand had dropped off. have seen others and a friend bought one from a caravan shop a while ago .unfortunately he isnt here for a few months so can have a look . but some one is still making them . there was several uk manufacturers of them years ago.

 

[Byronic]

You're right about the sense of humour varying of course. Kiwis dour? You're probably right, they're of mainly Scottish ancestry so that may explain why.
Not only variance in the sense of humour...... I spent a few months in the NT. Loved, it the wildness and the Godforsakedness of the place but then maybe I'm nuts. I possess a Kiwi passport/citizenship so perhaps that explains it.
Way off topic.
Junkers make the best water heaters, that's right the same German co. that made WW2 planes. I had one in NZ a Junkers w/heater not a Junkers plane!

 

[vwalan]

hi ron .you sure it was junkers .i have a jankirs one here . says germany on the box but inside as exactly the same insides and most of the bits are marked made in china.

 

[Byronic]

hi ron .you sure it was junkers .i have a jankirs one here . says germany on the box but inside as exactly the same insides and most of the bits are marked made in china.

Alan I am not going to fall for that one. I'm sure that in China there's a firm calls itself HONDO, and you know what..... they make motorbikes!!!

 

[vwalan]

hi, i,m not joking this on was bought in germany .but the owner broke a casting . i fitted one of the maroc heaters and as we looked at the insides it is the same . it cost alot more in germany . i got it as spares incase anybody didnt drain one or something. just i thought i knew the name. these days most of germany,s stuff is made in china. as been for years. remember import export was part of what i did .and based on german items. those in this thread are identical i think to the ones i use even down to the twenty minute timer . and all come with a ce certificate. but you know them seen them lots i should think. i used to bring the ones from carefour they were ok as well. mind they had a pilot light . i dont really like pilot lights the new ones are much better.

 

[Teutone]

Wow!

Second, you mentioned having a boiler in the loft. Again, very sensible , imo. However, my daughter in London was told that this, too, was against the law. I don't know why.

I had the boiler and heating system installed by an approved installer. They only moaned about the extra work to get more pipework in place but had not other objections. If it would be illegal, they sure wouldn't have carried it out? I have a signed piece of paper from the installer that all is safe and to legal requirements.

I have seen combi boilers in garages, that seems to me a more dangerous place.

 

[Byronic]

Sounds unlikely I know but 15 mins ago I was walking by a retail dealers, and he was displaying Vaillant, Fagor domestic w/heaters and advertisng signs for Junkers. So all 3 are still going it would appear. Everybodies stuff (nearly) is made in China but if Junkers have their W/heaters made there you can bet on it being built to Junkers standards of quality.

 

[vwalan]

should have gone in and had a good look . i have in leroy merlins .they show loads but under the covers they are the same. badge engineering on heaters like cars . makes the world go round. mind lots of things are like this try welders they are as bad . the only differance is the price.

 

[Byronic]

Alan you are giving me a hard time here. Junkers have a solid reputation to stand behind.

Anybody who copies their design may not have a solid or any reputation, ie you cannot be sure that the quality of thing you are buying is exactly the same, it's possible that it may be better, how does the ordinary bloke in the street know?

Not by believing too much written on the Iinternet. I'd say with gas appliances in particular you have to be especially careful.

 

[vwalan]

not meant tobe giving you a hard time but just thought i would have been nosey. you know i have been fitting the water heaters along time . had no problems and considering where the trucks go they handle it well. i just looked at the broken one in the garage bacause when you said junkers i at first thought it was the same.
anyway have you polished that lovely merc lately . havent been round to inspect it so you are having an easy time .hee hee regards to your wife .hope you are warmer than here . mind its ok here at moment except raining. must be warmest area of uk .+7 at the moment . lovely . we can remove the coat now. see you soon .

 

[n brown]

funny thing with these heaters,i use to pick them up discarded next to bins around europe,and fix them up to flog on.the 2 most common reasons they were dumped was obviously scaled up,an easy fix with muriatic acid in any supermarket,but the other was wasp grubs in the pilot or the burner.if you watch a wasp it just goes round inspecting small holes,i watched one do a line of 150 pop rivets ,but any little hole and its in making as big a nest as it can,this includes any little holes on your bodywork,so watch it !