Do you carry a scooter or motorbike in your garage?

[Squiffy]

I have now spoken to the Camping and caravan club, they were also not aware of this situation and have asked that we try and find out who in particular was find for this offence, so that their legal team can investigate the case as if it has happened a precedence will have been created and it will have to be investigated to the full to see if a miscarriage of law has occurred and if not what the industry is going to do about it.
So can everyone please try to find out who exactly was caught on this point of law, and inform me so that I can pass on his or her details. Phil

 

[trevskoda]

I will do my best but every day i clear my bookmark history.
This i think is very important to all of use,just think how silly this could end up if not sorted.
Say folks going geocashing of metal detecting ,could this be termed as using for work or other and not s.d.p.
I remeber when a youth my mate got done in his mk 1 estate escort for carrying a drum kit for a band with the rear seats folded down,years later the law about folding est seats down was scraped but use for profit,ie carrying goods or samples for such still stands unless the ins co is informed,so we better take the bike bit on board and sort,also do the people who make tail lifts for scooters know this and what is there take on it.

 

[Squiffy]

also do the people who make tail lifts for scooters know this and what is there take on it.

I dont suppose for one minute they care Trev, so long as you keep purchasing their goods they are not going to say its illegal. Phil

 

[wildebus]

There are load of rules around driving regulations that most probably don't know about.
Here is an example of one which which will impact far more people than whether or not they can carry a Motorbike ....

If you have a typical 3.5t Motorhome, you can travel at the same speed as a car can, yes?
Well actually no, not always. If for example you are going to a car boot sale to sell some bit and pieces out the loft, then you are carrying goods for sale (doesn't matter if they are personal goods or business goods). In that situation your speed limit is the same as a commercial vehicle of that weight and base vehicle i.e. 10 MPH lower on national limit single and dual carriageway roads.

This is one reason why when I converted my T5 to a Campervan, I had it insured on a Campervan Policy including business use, but I never had it reclassified as a Motor Caravan, but left it as a "MPV" body Type, and a Diesel Car classification - as a car going to a car boot sale or used commercially remains a Car, but a Motor Caravan reverts to a Commercial.
PS. My Insurance company was perfectly happy with having a Campervan policy on Car in case anyone was going to ask (I checked this precise point with them)


The ambiguity and rabbit holes of UK vehicle and driver legislation is massive and really ALL of it should be more obvious and clear and ideally simplified.
In terms of Insurance, if your insurance company knows there is a bike on board and are ok with it, I can't see how DVSA claiming the bike has changed the vehicle classification will make any difference and it will not void that policy as the use of the vehicle has not changed. Breaking a law does not invalidate insurance. If it did then everytime someone broke the speed limit, they would have no valid insurance.

 

[trevskoda]

Just hunted about every web site i use and hell can i find the thread, i will let brain cool and try later tonight.
One thing i do is take my kids and the cycles in van which scares me a tad now.

 

[wildebus]

Just hunted about every web site i use and hell can i find the thread, i will let brain cool and try later tonight.
One thing i do is take my kids and the cycles in van which scares me a tad now.

Why?
I copy below an except from the original DVSA/DVLA reply Phil got ....
A 'Motor Caravan' has installed equipment and facilities necessary for the vehicle to provide living accommodation and which only carries goods needed for the purposes of residence in the vehicle (e.g. sufficient food for expected length of holiday, cycles, surfboards etc). They could even carry something like a scooter, if is used for the purpose of residence in the vehicle (the scooter could be used for shopping because of the size of the caravan). Regardless of weight, they would come under Class IV.
so if you really needed to, you have evidence of cycles being stated as ok to be taken in a Motor Caravan.

 

[trevskoda]

Thanks that seems to make things clear,i was reading the first bit,so we should be ok i hope,still cannot understand why someone was pulled by vosa regarding scooter in garage.
So reading the letter in full as i should have done im now happy,where folk may get caught is if over weight which on some vans is very close to limits as is from new.

 

[Squiffy]

I hav'nt checked but maybe I forgot to post the email that I recieved from the head of department of HGV and PSV in Swansea.

Good morning,



These are the definitions in The Road Vehicles(Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as amended.



motor caravan

a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their

effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are

reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation

for its users.



Living Van,

a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which

is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.



A motorbike is not needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle it is an optional extra so therefore the vehicle carrying a motorbike is a living van and not motorhome.

Those lockers are for carrying items such as an awning and furniture to use in that awning for example. Or a disabled scooter if one of the occupants is disabled.



If you do not like this, and it would appear that you do not, you will need to take it up with your MP to see if you can get that regulation changed.



Regards



Philip Harrison



Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer.
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792454206, Fax 01792 454387

I am obliged to emphasise that this advice is the view of DVSA and is not intended to be an interpretation of the law;
Only a court of law is able to give a legal, definitive interpretation

 

[trevskoda]

Looks like im scared once again,you can you cannot.
Some of the above replies seem a tad contradictory from vosa.

 

[wildebus]

Thanks that seems to make things clear,i was reading the first bit,so we should be ok i hope,still cannot understand why someone was pulled by vosa regarding scooter in garage.
So reading the letter in full as i should have done im now happy,where folk may get caught is if over weight which on some vans is very close to limits as is from new.

it is the ambiguity that really annoys me. You should not have ambiguity in law; you need precision.
The guy says "cycles" are ok. Makes total sense. But he then says "bikes" are probably not. What is the difference? many people refer to their Pedal Bicycle as a "Bike" just like many call their Motor Cycle a "Bike". And some call their Motorbikes "cycles". Which does he mean? I think we know but can't assume and a defence laywer would rip that statement apart due to lack of clarity.
He says Scooters are ok as well to carry? ref "They could even carry something like a scooter, if is used for the purpose of residence in the vehicle". What is the legal difference between a Motorbike and a Motor Scooter? I don't think there is one, just like there is no legal difference between a "Motorhome" and a "Campervan" - they are both correctly "Motor Caravans" as we all know. So another example of ambiguity.

 

[trevskoda]

In the end only a trial case will sort it out as what i read happened, mean time some poor sods will get shafted as normal .

 

[Garywrench]

Just found this forum.. first thing I see is this post and I’m 2/3rds of the way through building an L3 H2 into a motorcycle carrying campervan .... ridiculous. From all the ‘race vans’ out there I guess nobody is having a problem getting them registered as ‘Motor Caravan’... I’ll put a push bike in there for the pictures I send to the DVLA then.....

 

[Squiffy]

I dont think you have to start panicking now Gary, it will probably take a fair while for this situation to filter through. But it is definitely something that we should be aware o, because if the DVSA start targeting motorhomes its not only this problem but I'm pretty sure that a great many of us are also over weight.Phil

 

[Garywrench]

I dont think you have to start panicking now Gary, it will probably take a fair while for this situation to filter through. But it is definitely something that we should be aware o, because if the DVSA start targeting motorhomes its not only this problem but I'm pretty sure that a great many of us are also over weight.Phil

Thankfully I’m underweight .. only a 100kg 250cc trail bike, doesn’t carry any passengers when bikes in, doesn’t carry a bike when passengers in. Little worried about my other build - L4H3 with elevating bed... that’ll be close even when replated so don’t want them to start pulling us all over for daft checks !

 

[Squiffy]

Just to add to our woes I have just been in contact with a DVSA officer who does not want to be identified, he has told me that the DVSA are trialling a weigh road bridge that is under a public road this is ganged to APNR cameras and records your weight against DVLA records, at present they are just noting
Offences but not following up on them at this point in time. There are apparently a few of these dotted around the country but more will be installed if these seem successful. Phil

It seems that big brother is looking over your shoulder.

 

[Garywrench]

Oh bugger, best tell the wife to pack light in summer then !

 

[wildebus]

Just to add to our woes I have just been in contact with a DVSA officer who does not want to be identified, he has told me that the DVSA are trialling a weigh road bridge that is under a public road this is ganged to APNR cameras and records your weight against DVLA records, at present they are just noting
Offences but not following up on them at this point in time. There are apparently a few of these dotted around the country but more will be installed if these seem successful. Phil

It seems that big brother is looking over your shoulder.

TBH, I have ZERO issue with that happening. Too many people run overweight either deliberately (so they deserve to get done) or through ignorance (which is nearly as bad).

 

[Millie Master]

Phil @Squiffy, you are doing an absolutely fantastic job. OK it doesn't affect me but I know of a great number of motorhome owners who it does and as such it is a matter that surely MUST be brought to the attention of the press and public alike?

As one of the people who corresponded with you from the DVSA suggested, if you feel this matter needs addressing or changing then bring it to the attention of your MP(s) which is exactly what I have suggested earlier.

To do such a thing, we all need to be singing from the very same hymn sheet, as such, it might be worthwhile writing a draft letter for us all to use when writing to our MP's. As this is the case, and it is a big ask, but, would you be able to put together a draft letter that we can all copy or duplicate and duly alter with our own contact details so that we can all start to send them to our elected representatives in the House of Commons??

Furthermore, as this is such a vitally important matter, is it not now the time to flag this topic up on both the Motorhomer & Wild Camping forums, possibly at the same time roping in the weighty help of various mods such as @Edina as well as of course the boss @Admin?

Also, if you are in agreement to do so, would it not be opportune to also make the membership of the two big clubs aware of this major problem through their on line forums?

If you need any help, I am, as always here to lend you a helping hand.

Brilliant work my friend.

Phil

 

[trevskoda]

Change org or one of the other ones may be the way to go

 

[Squiffy]

Weigh bridges hidden in public roads

My reason for posting that info was more to show that times are a changing and what is being discussed is more than probably going to increase exponentially in the near future. Phil