Victron Orion

[MarkJ]

Random question...I'm just making sure I can account for the current draws I'm seeing when my van is parked up in storage.

I see from the data sheet for the Orion the "no load current" is specified as "<80mA" and the "Standby current" is "<1mA". I'm probably being dense, but what's the difference?

And if I have my Orion sitting there, but engine not running, is it taking whichever current it is from the VB side or the LB side? I'm presuming it's from the VB.

Thanks

 

[wildebus]

I would think no-load is when the device is on but not active. Standby is when it is disabled by remote signal? Or possibly when the charger is turned off via the settings option in VE.Connect.

Generally activated by the input so yes, I think your assumption about the VB supplying that current is correct.

Interesting observation. If my first sentence is correct then it would make sense to pull the little green jumper or better, to turn the charger off in the Settings.

It can also be a good option to have the remote input via a switch or connected to the ignition so that the B2B will only be allowed to activate when the input voltage is high enough AND the ignition is on (this prevents the B2B kicking in when you have a charger live on the starter battery and the voltage hits the ON threshold).

 

[MarkJ]

Right, I might experiment and turn the charger off to confirm what happens. But the van is a mile away up a rough farm track, so the incentive needs to be good!

I'm seeing a steady 300mA draw on the LBs (though for some strange reason it was 400mA last night.) I have connected:

MPPT 25mA
Orion 0mA (assuming its power cones from the VB side)
Venus GX 210mA
Ablemail 2mA

Total 237mA

So there's something in there somewhere....

I know it's only fractions of an amp, but where I keep the van the solar is marginal, because it's partly shaded. If I can reduce the current even by a bit it will help.

 

[wildebus]

Right, I might experiment and turn the charger off to confirm what happens. But the van is a mile away up a rough farm track, so the incentive needs to be good!

I'm seeing a steady 300mA draw on the LBs (though for some strange reason it was 400mA last night.) I have connected:

MPPT 25mA
Orion 0mA (assuming its power cones from the VB side)
Venus GX 210mA
Ablemail 2mA

Total 237mA

So there's something in there somewhere....

I know it's only fractions of an amp, but where I keep the van the solar is marginal, because it's partly shaded. If I can reduce the current even by a bit it will help.

I have 0.7A on my Leisure Batteries when 'nothing' is on.

That draw comprises:
Victron Cerbo GX;
MiFi Router;
Optical IO board;
Temp sensor;
Something else as well which I can't recall I am sure!

When any standbys from the chargers come into play, the current is 0.9A, and when the habitation stuff is enabled but not in use (so things like USB sockets that stay powered up, alarm siren, 12V regs for Amazon Echos, maybe TV in standby) there is an additional 0.9A.


Turning off all habitation 12V can make a big difference. A dash radio that is incorrectly fitted (which is normal on motorhomes!) can really be a big draw and should be checked and resolved if need be as a priority prior to storage.

 

[MarkJ]

So I'm definitely in the right ball park. When I've got an hour to spare I'll trying turning things off one by one, until only the smart shunt is left (I forgot that from my list - but it's stated to be <1mA). I'm just curious.

My 12V devices are all off (isolation switch...) and the radio is on the VB - so in theory it should just be what I listed. My money is on the Orion taking a bit from the LB side somehow, because I can't think what else it could be, but we'll see.

 

[wildebus]

So I'm definitely in the right ball park. When I've got an hour to spare I'll trying turning things off one by one, until only the smart shunt is left (I forgot that from my list - but it's stated to be <1mA). I'm just curious.

My 12V devices are all off (isolation switch...) and the radio is on the VB - so in theory it should just be what I listed. My money is on the Orion taking a bit from the LB side somehow, because I can't think what else it could be, but we'll see.

the Victron BMVs will not show any current use (but it will be there) so we just have to trust what Victron state as being right.

I have all my Habitation 12V power fed via the Victron 100/20 SmartSolar LOAD output, so I am able to see via the app or the VRM just how much is consumed - and also to disconnect it fully by turning the LOAD output off, which is handy

I don't think it is an option on the Victron kit, but with the various Ablemail devices, you can setup their data interfaces (be it Bluetooth or Serial/USB) to be either active or inactive when the charger is off (a "Low Power Enable" option) so they consume minimal power when they are idle if you need to conserve energy.

 

[Nabsim]

Do you only use your 12v in hab area when solar harvesting then Dave?

 

[wildebus]

Do you only use your 12v in hab area when solar harvesting then Dave?

Nah, I set the LOAD to be "Always on" so it is like a monitored power passthrough of 20A. Find it works very neatly.

 

[PeteS]

I have my victron MPPT connected to a raspberry pi via the VE direct port using homemade interface leads, I noticed yesterday when I turn off the raspberry pi and all associated kit the Load output switched ON and could not be switched off in the App although Off was selected.
There is something about this in the manual for configuring the Load Output. I havent investigated it further yet but thought it might be of interest.
I have an Ablemail trickle charger connected to the Load output for the starter battery and also wanted to turn that off but couldnt with the Pi off.
I wondered if the genuine interface leads wouldnt do this but I suspect the same would happen.

I switched off my monitoring as the forecast is cold for the next 10 days so very little Solar harvesting and the motorhome has gone into the workshop for some warranty work and I didnt want the Lithium battery to be discharged via the onboard monitoring. Off it takes less than 10mA from a 150Ah battery so will last a while!! it normally draws 600mA.

On a slightly different note the Victron IP22 charger that I have does not have lo temp cutoff so have turned that off to prevent a workshop numpty from plugging it in when the temp is below 5C, I'm pleased to see that the new IP22 Rev2 does have lo temp protection for lithium when used with a Smart Battery Sense or BMV and one will be fitted very soon.

 

[wildebus]

A few comments .....
Controlling MPPT via RPi. This should be no problem. I do this on occasions, and via VE.Connect via the VRM option turned off the Load Output just this morning. I use a Cerbo GX not a Pi but that will make no difference.
I would disagree with you and would suspect the problem of not being able to do this is much more likely the DIY interface cable rather than using the RPi. I found the homemade cables too unreliable in use - they would disconnect randomly for no reason. It was not a physical issue as rebooting the GX device would find the devices again with no manual/physical intervention. This was on Cerbo, Venus and RPi units. I stick to proper Victron Cables for VE.Direct to USB connections although DIY VE.Direct-VE.Direct cables have never been a problem so often make my own for those.

I turned off the Load today as the van is off the driveway (need to make room for tree felling work) and wanted to minimise draw.
Using the Load output for the AMT is very handy - you can monitor it nicely and also via the App turn it off and on (usually ). I used to have mine connected that way but connected directly after I rearranged the electrics kit.
What I did then might be of interest? Connected the AMT up via two switches ... Routed the 0V on the AMT to -VE via a switch, and routed an additional connection on one of the +VEs on the AMT to SW1 on the AMT via a Switch.
So when the 0V switch is open, the AMT is forced off and will draw no power at all.
When the 0V switch is closed, the AMT will work as programmed
When the 0V switch AND the +VE switch are both closed, the AMT is in override mode and a higher rate trickle occurs.
These are manual switches so only accessible within the van but it does make it very easy to remotely control the AMT without having to mess with wiring.

 

[PeteS]

I probably didnt explain it very well but I think you missed my point, with the Pi turned off, ie not working so not controlling the MPPT but still connected the Load output is not controllable by any means including Bluetooth. You can change the function from Always On to Always Off but the Load output will remain on irrespective.

The MPPT will still be trying to send data via VE Direct but now it is trying to also power the interface by the TX line and probably any pullups on the RX line of the VE port. Dont forget the interface is powered by the usb in the Pi but that is off.

If you turn off your Cerbo Gx completely, ie remove power from it I suspect you will see the same issue, if not then Yes the Victron interface has circuitry to stop it being powere from the VE Direct port.

 

[wildebus]

I probably didnt explain it very well but I think you missed my point, with the Pi turned off, ie not working so not controlling the MPPT but still connected the Load output is not controllable by any means including Bluetooth. You can change the function from Always On to Always Off but the Load output will remain on irrespective.

The MPPT will still be trying to send data via VE Direct but now it is trying to also power the interface by the TX line and probably any pullups on the RX line of the VE port. Dont forget the interface is powered by the usb in the Pi but that is off.

If you turn off your Cerbo Gx completely, ie remove power from it I suspect you will see the same issue, if not then Yes the Victron interface has circuitry to stop it being powere from the VE Direct port.

Interesting. I do find it strange that it would make any difference to the MPPT responding correctly. If you turn it off via VE.Connect, it should be off. simple as that. Staying on when it says off would be a bug in the product regardless of using RPi or Victron branded Venus OS device.

I might try replicating your MPPT setup with both a Cerbo GX and RPi and with Victron and DIY USB Cables. My MPPTs are connected via the VE.Direct Cables rather than USB (I use the USB for a couple of the BMVs)

 

[st3v3]

I probably didnt explain it very well but I think you missed my point, with the Pi turned off, ie not working so not controlling the MPPT but still connected the Load output is not controllable by any means including Bluetooth. You can change the function from Always On to Always Off but the Load output will remain on irrespective.

Really? That doesn't seem right at all.

Definitely a fault I would say.

 

[PeteS]

I don’t think it’s a fault just unintentional behaviour. It could be the home made ve direct interfaces. I suspect if I turned off the ve network on the MPPT it would work as described.
But can’t try that as Motorhome is in the workshop.

 

[MarkJ]

I was under the impression (from the data sheet) that the AMT drew next to no power (<2mA) so I wasn't worried about being able to turn it off. Is that right?

And anyway, I want it on, because it keeps my vehicle battery topped up from the LBs.

So maybe I need to find the best way of disabling my Orion. Need to read the manual again, but I think there's a physical link which is made to enable the Orion and broken to disable?

 

[wildebus]

I was under the impression (from the data sheet) that the AMT drew next to no power (<2mA) so I wasn't worried about being able to turn it off. Is that right?

And anyway, I want it on, because it keeps my vehicle battery topped up from the LBs.

So maybe I need to find the best way of disabling my Orion. Need to read the manual again, but I think there's a physical link which is made to enable the Orion and broken to disable?

Tiny draw yes. It was more a comment on controllability more than power saving.

Ref Orion-Tr... There is a plug that is used to remotely disable the unit. it has an H and an L link. Pull H high, it is not disabled; OR Pull L low, it is not disabled; OR link H to L and it is not disabled.
(PS. "not disabled" is not the same as "enabled" as it also depends on the internal configuration)

 

[xsilvergs]

I have an Orion TR-Smart 12-12/30 charging Lithiums from a standard alternator, I raised Shutdown Detection and Lockout voltages from the default. The default could leave the Orion charging the LBs for a short while after switch-off.

I also have an IP22 12-30(1), this I have set manually to charge the Lithiums to 14.2v and storage set to ~13.24v which holds them at just under 90% SoC. I disconnected it from the Smart Network as the IP22 forced the MPPT's into storage mode. I like the idea of the solar giving the Lithiums a free boost when the sun shines. Although the low temp cut-off is disabled now there shouldn't be much charging anyway.

For Starter battery charging I have an AMT with custom programming. It still can't sense the Lithiums voltage to my satisfaction and so just charges the SB continually.

When it comes to parasitic drain I see a continual 1 Amp +, but there is all the Victron stuff, a RPi GX, the AMT and at least one other RPi running continually.

One idea was to control the AMT from SoC and/or the MPPTs state of operation. The AMT doesn't trigger on the SW inputs from 3v3 of the RPi although there are alternative options.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I do wonder about low temperature charging of lithium's by the Solar and MPPT. Is the tiny amount of harvesting really going to harm them?

 

[wildebus]

I do wonder about low temperature charging of lithium's by the Solar and MPPT. Is the tiny amount of harvesting really going to harm them?

basically .... no.
If you look at the flowchart I posted for the Powerroad Subzero (I'll post below again), if the charge current on the 100Ah battery is below 10A (for a C/10 rate), then the BMS allows charge to proceed.
Also bear in mind that this is a Net current into the battery. If the solar is bring in say 13A, and you are using 5A, the Net charge current is still under 10A

 

[MarkJ]

I need to find the best way of disabling my Orion. Need to read the manual again...

...which I just have. Is there any reason not to disable it via VC? It says for 'maintenance purposes only' but I can't see the significance of saying that. I could wire the external link with a switch, but it's just as easy to use VC. Is there any practical difference between breaking the link and setting it to disabled using VC? The manual just says

• Toggling this setting turns the Orion Smart off. The batteries will not be charged.

Sound ideal...