Victron Orion starting too quickly?

[MarkJ]

I've been tracking down an issue I had with the van on Dec 7th. I went to start it after it had been sitting for a few weeks to give it a run and charge the batteries. It started fine, but after a couple of seconds, the engine faltered, almost stalled then picked up. As it did so, the engine management light came on. It's still under warranty so I took it to the dealer who said the code (P11AB) was to do with "turbo air pressure" and said the fix was to update the ECU software. I wasn't convinced; yes it could have been a turbo problem, but it also felt to me like a sudden large engine load had kicked in, and perhaps this triggered the warning light somehow - and I wondered about the Orion. (The LBs did need charging - when I got them home and charged via EHU they drew 30A+ for the best part of an hour)

I've looked back at VRM traces and I think this was probably the first time since I've fitted the Orion when it would have done some serious work. We've been on quite a few trips, but not with low LBs on engine start.

The traces from Dec 7 suggest to me that the Orion kicked in immediately the engine started, which is consistent with what I felt might have happened. The "delayed start voltage delay" is set to 120s, so it shouldn't have started charging, but you can see a current of about 18A drawn immediately the starter voltage got to about 14V, so it looks like it did, though it tails off quite fast. I kept the engine running for just a few minutes after the warning light appeared and while the VRM only samples at 1 minute intervals and is probably not great at capturing transient peaks (might have been more than 18A to start with...), it would have been long enough to capture the 120s delay. It's not what I expected the trace to look like.

Any theories, anyone? Thanks. Have I misunderstood how the Orion is supposed to work, and is this normal?

Traces and Orion configs attached (The Orion charger was enabled at the time....). It's an isolated 30A jobbie, by the way, just configured to use engine shutdown protection: I've not done anything fancy with the D+.

 

[wildebus]

interesting.
I would agree with your comments that it looks like the charger came on pretty immediately after the engine start and not after a 2 minute delay as the setting in the charger would suggest should happen.
I think your intention of having the charger delay starting straightaway is good as well (I do just the same thing with my Ablemail 60A B2B - I have the first 30A side programmed with a delayed start and the 2nd 30A section delayed another minute or so to allow a ramp up).

Now the following might be relevant to you and what you noticed and I will try and explain it best I can ...
I have noticed a slightly odd (IMO) way of operating of the Orion-TR Charger. There are two ways to disable the charger - when the voltage is too low (engine shutdown) and when the remote link is not connected (disabled by remote). If the charger is disabled by remote, it still monitors the voltage. If it sees the voltage high enough to enable it, it 'remembers' that it could have switched on, and as soon as the remote connection is enabled again, the charger will switch on REGARDLESS of the input voltage. It then switches off again, but it does come on.

I wonder if in your setup, you had the charger disabled by remote earlier, started the engine, and the Orion *wanted* to start up as soon as the conditions were met (voltage high enough for 2 minutes) but the remote prevented it, and then it started again when remote enabled, coinciding with you starting engine? It also turned itself very quickly and when the starter battery was still at a high voltage. did you turn the charger off yourself?

Just a thought there. Do you get the same immediate charger-on situation each time you start up?

 

[MarkJ]

you had the charger disabled by remote earlier,

Good idea, but no, it's been enabled for months. I only disabled it the other week while I was investigating this.

Do you get the same immediate charger-on situation each time you start up

Hmm. Maybe I should spend more time on the VRM traces, but the few checked in the last couple of months weren't helpful because we'd been on EHU before setting off, so if there was an immediate current it probably wasn't much.

I don't know about where you are, but it's practically dark here in the south at midday, and raining - so maybe I'll spend the afternoon looking at VRM and trying to work out all the dates where we drove from somewhere to somewhere!

 

[MarkJ]

did you turn the charger off yourself

No, I turned off the engine after a couple of minutes (the starter voltage trace shows what I did), but it was decaying by itself before then (or maybe the alternator was having a sulk and not supplying current - who knows?)

 

[wildebus]

Good idea, but no, it's been enabled for months. I only disabled it the other week while I was investigating this.

Hmm. Maybe I should spend more time on the VRM traces, but the few checked in the last couple of months weren't helpful because we'd been on EHU before setting off, so if there was an immediate current it probably wasn't much.

I don't know about where you are, but it's practically dark here in the south at midday, and raining - so maybe I'll spend the afternoon looking at VRM and trying to work out all the dates where we drove from somewhere to somewhere!

I'm in the borders. fairly bright right now but raining. It was still totally dark at 8AM here.

 

[xsilvergs]

I've been tracking down an issue I had with the van on Dec 7th. I went to start it after it had been sitting for a few weeks to give it a run and charge the batteries. It started fine, but after a couple of seconds, the engine faltered, almost stalled then picked up. As it did so, the engine management light came on. It's still under warranty so I took it to the dealer who said the code (P11AB) was to do with "turbo air pressure" and said the fix was to update the ECU software. I wasn't convinced; yes it could have been a turbo problem, but it also felt to me like a sudden large engine load had kicked in, and perhaps this triggered the warning light somehow - and I wondered about the Orion. (The LBs did need charging - when I got them home and charged via EHU they drew 30A+ for the best part of an hour)

I've looked back at VRM traces and I think this was probably the first time since I've fitted the Orion when it would have done some serious work. We've been on quite a few trips, but not with low LBs on engine start.

The traces from Dec 7 suggest to me that the Orion kicked in immediately the engine started, which is consistent with what I felt might have happened. The "delayed start voltage delay" is set to 120s, so it shouldn't have started charging, but you can see a current of about 18A drawn immediately the starter voltage got to about 14V, so it looks like it did, though it tails off quite fast. I kept the engine running for just a few minutes after the warning light appeared and while the VRM only samples at 1 minute intervals and is probably not great at capturing transient peaks (might have been more than 18A to start with...), it would have been long enough to capture the 120s delay. It's not what I expected the trace to look like.

Any theories, anyone? Thanks. Have I misunderstood how the Orion is supposed to work, and is this normal?

Traces and Orion configs attached (The Orion charger was enabled at the time....). It's an isolated 30A jobbie, by the way, just configured to use engine shutdown protection: I've not done anything fancy with the D+.

View attachment 4928

View attachment 4929

This is not a suggestion or recommendation because I don't want abuse from anyone and from past experience I should just keep my mouth shut. But here goes, my non-isolated Orion is set like this

 

[MarkJ]

my non-isolated Orion is set like this

Interesting. Do you mean you've got a smart alternator but set it to "regular"?

I'll spend the afternoon looking at VRM

That was dull. Mostly the LBs were in good enough state such that the MPPT was generating enough on its own. But I did find a few instances where there was current flowing to the LBs in excess of the solar current straight after starting the engine. Only a few Amps, but there's nowhere else it could have come from (Multiplus off or not on EHU).

So I think I do conclude that the Orion is starting straightaway. Previously it's only been a few Amps, but on Dec 7th it was possibly 20 or more.

Hmph. Not sure where to go with this now....

from past experience I should just keep my mouth shut

I'll have to have a search round . Might fill in a slow Boxing Day

 

[xsilvergs]

Interesting. Do you mean you've got a smart alternator but set it to "regular"?



That was dull. Mostly the LBs were in good enough state such that the MPPT was generating enough on its own. But I did find a few instances where there was current flowing to the LBs in excess of the solar current straight after starting the engine. Only a few Amps, but there's nowhere else it could have come from (Multiplus off or not on EHU).

So I think I do conclude that the Orion is starting straightaway. Previously it's only been a few Amps, but on Dec 7th it was possibly 20 or more.

Hmph. Not sure where to go with this now....

I'll have to have a search round . Might fill in a slow Boxing Day

Regular alternator, see first image.

Orion TR Smart non-isolated, it has 3 terminals, +ve IN, GND, +ve OUT. https://www.onboardenergydirect.co....mart-Battery-Charger-non-isolated.html#SID=13

I just thought that the images from my Orion would show you how my van is set up, I have not noticed any charging of the leisure batteries for 120 seconds (as per my settings).

 

[MarkJ]

I think I've been misreading the manual (though I do think it's ambiguous). It says:


Start voltage (Vstart): At this level charging starts immediately. Default: 14V.

Delayed start voltage (Vstart(delay)): Smart alternators can generate a lower voltage when the engine is running, therefore a lower start level is necessary for these systems. To ensure that the starter battery is recharged after starting the engine, charging of the auxiliary battery is delayed during this condition. The energy used during starting must be replenished to ensure that the starter battery remains properly charged. Default: 13.3V (Smart Alternator) and 13.8 (Regular Alternator).

Delayed start voltage delay (tstart delay): Recharge time for the starter battery during start level (delayed). Example: If the starter draws 150A for 5sec to start the engine, about ~0.2Ah is drawn from the starter battery. If, during engine idling, the alternator can only generate 20A, it takes 150A/20A x 5sec =37.5sec to recharge the starter battery. Default: 2 minutes.

Which can be interpreted as:
If the starter voltage goes over Vstart (14V) charging will start
and additionally
If the starter voltage goes over Vstart(delay) (set to 13.3V) then charging will also start so long as at least "tstart delay" (120) seconds have elapsed.

I reckon that's what's going on. Current starts to be drawn when 14V appears.

 

[xsilvergs]

@MarkJ Just wondering if you have you sorted this yet?

 

[wildebus]

I think I've been misreading the manual (though I do think it's ambiguous). It says:


Start voltage (Vstart): At this level charging starts immediately. Default: 14V.

Delayed start voltage (Vstart(delay)): Smart alternators can generate a lower voltage when the engine is running, therefore a lower start level is necessary for these systems. To ensure that the starter battery is recharged after starting the engine, charging of the auxiliary battery is delayed during this condition. The energy used during starting must be replenished to ensure that the starter battery remains properly charged. Default: 13.3V (Smart Alternator) and 13.8 (Regular Alternator).

Delayed start voltage delay (tstart delay): Recharge time for the starter battery during start level (delayed). Example: If the starter draws 150A for 5sec to start the engine, about ~0.2Ah is drawn from the starter battery. If, during engine idling, the alternator can only generate 20A, it takes 150A/20A x 5sec =37.5sec to recharge the starter battery. Default: 2 minutes.

Which can be interpreted as:
If the starter voltage goes over Vstart (14V) charging will start
and additionally
If the starter voltage goes over Vstart(delay) (set to 13.3V) then charging will also start so long as at least "tstart delay" (120) seconds have elapsed.

I reckon that's what's going on. Current starts to be drawn when 14V appears.

It does sound from the manual that this delay is limited to when the voltage goes over a certain voltage.
FWIW, this type of behaviour is also apparent on the Victron Cyrix-ct Battery Combiner (VSR), where there is a graduated scale of delay, with the lower the voltage (above the minimum of course), the longer the delay until it engages.

Not sure what the "Smart Alternator" setting does apart from lowering the default Delayed Start and Shutdown voltages setting? You could maybe keep the lower Shutdown voltage to suit the Smart Alternator but raise the Delayed start voltage to invoke a delay?

 

[MarkJ]

Just wondering if you have you sorted this yet?

I think what I'm seeing is how Victron intended it to work, given the parameters. I just think I'd prefer to stress the alternator less on startup so I'll have a think about Wildebus's suggestion. A bit of reading suggests that the Orion can draw well in excess of its 30A rating when it starts and then limits itself if it gets too hot or if the LB charges quickly. I see the point: you get maximum charging, but when you start with perhaps a low vehicle battery that the alternator will try and fill I don't think you really want to take another 40+A from it at the same time Leaving it just a few minutes is bound to help.

 

[wildebus]

I think I saw 33A from an Orion-Tr when I was testing one with a low leisure battery. It shouldn't get too much above the 30A as the recommended fuse rating is only 40A if I remember right.
Out of possiblre interest, my B2B settings are along these lines ...
Enable by "remote" - so using voltage level activation but on a sense line rather than power cable, so less affected by voltage drop and have a switch in-line so I can override so it will stay off (useful if I am charging the starter battery from a charger or have a reason not to turn the B2B on). so similar function to the "H" input on the green remote plug on the Victron but with Voltage sensing.
Charger On Voltage is a fairly low 12.63V. Determined by test and trial to suit my particular vehicles characteristics, and an On-Delay of 60 seconds.

My B2B is a 60A unit, but is maybe better described as a 30A+30A unit, as this is the config for one half and I can (and have) configured the other half with different parameters ... still controlled by the sense cable but turns on at a higher voltage, again based on lessening the Alternator load at low RPMs where the output would be reduced. I find the B2B output in a journey varies between the nominal 30A and 60A depending on what driving I am doing. Could have it going full pelt probably but I don't mind loosing out on some charge if it reduces strain on the vehicle side of the electrics.
Victron allow multiple Orion-Tr Smart chargers in parallel and I think if I had two of them, I would configure the pair in a similar way to the above for the reasons given. Whether that is being overly cautious, maybe, but seems like a good idea.

 

[xsilvergs]

I think what I'm seeing is how Victron intended it to work, given the parameters. I just think I'd prefer to stress the alternator less on startup so I'll have a think about Wildebus's suggestion. A bit of reading suggests that the Orion can draw well in excess of its 30A rating when it starts and then limits itself if it gets too hot or if the LB charges quickly. I see the point: you get maximum charging, but when you start with perhaps a low vehicle battery that the alternator will try and fill I don't think you really want to take another 40+A from it at the same time Leaving it just a few minutes is bound to help.

Have you considered/tried raising the "Input voltage lock-out" and the "Engine shutdown detection" level above those in your first post?

 

[MarkJ]

Have you considered/tried raising the "Input voltage lock-out" and the "Engine shutdown detection" level above those in your first post?

Mulling it over.

Wildebus' suggestion would require the Vstart to be raised to, say, 16V to ensure that the Orion used the Vstart/tsart (delay) parameters, but that would be ok. Except that the reason Victron have the (delay) parameters is that smart alternators apparently run at much less than 14.4V when there's little for them to do, and the (delay) parameters sense for this. So setting them high means charging would only happen at the higher voltage.

Not sure about the params you suggest, will read the manual again!

 

[SquirrellCook]

It's not like it's hard to do, suck and see.

 

[xsilvergs]

It's not like it's hard to do, suck and see.

Oh so true.
Victron give a great app that makes changes so easy, unlike some other brands that require a Windows PC plus a lead and little to no instructions how to adjust it.

 

[xsilvergs]

Mulling it over.

Wildebus' suggestion would require the Vstart to be raised to, say, 16V to ensure that the Orion used the Vstart/tsart (delay) parameters, but that would be ok. Except that the reason Victron have the (delay) parameters is that smart alternators apparently run at much less than 14.4V when there's little for them to do, and the (delay) parameters sense for this. So setting them high means charging would only happen at the higher voltage.

Not sure about the params you suggest, will read the manual again!

Can you not connect a voltmeter across the starter battery and record the voltages you see, without the B2B connected? Turn ignition ON, start engine, run for say 3 minutes and switch off. During all this note down the voltage every 5 seconds, (faster if you can write that quick) and from this build a picture of what your starter batter voltage does, perhaps draw a graph even.

Having some actual recorded voltages may take out most of the guess work.

I for one would be very interested to see your results, possibly a few others too.

 

[wildebus]

Oh so true.
Victron give a great app that makes changes so easy, unlike some other brands that require a Windows PC plus a lead and little to no instructions how to adjust it.

Yup, that's why I use the Smartphone App via the Bluetooth Adapter to configure and monitor my Ablemail B2B Charger

 

[wildebus]

Mulling it over.

Wildebus' suggestion would require the Vstart to be raised to, say, 16V to ensure that the Orion used the Vstart/tsart (delay) parameters, but that would be ok. Except that the reason Victron have the (delay) parameters is that smart alternators apparently run at much less than 14.4V when there's little for them to do, and the (delay) parameters sense for this. So setting them high means charging would only happen at the higher voltage.

Not sure about the params you suggest, will read the manual again!

Bear in mind the Start Voltage is just what it says ... the START voltage. It does not mean the voltage has to be above that voltage all the time the B2B is active.
As soon as the voltage hits the Delayed Start Voltage for 120 seconds OR the Start Voltage, the B2B Charger is activated and it stays activated all the time the voltage is above the Shutdown Voltage.
So if you left the Shutdown voltage as it was, you could raise the normal Start Voltage up sufficiently and then you would invoke the delay timer.

You could get an idea of the sweetspot to set to by checking the voltages but you don't need to faff about with a meter and a notepad ... you just need to load VE.Connect, go to the Trends option on the BMV/Smartshunt, set the first data point to Starter Battery (V) (2nd one you could set to Voltage or Current ready to compare when the B2B is enabled) and see a second-by-second view.
You would need to have the B2B enabled at some time during the monitoring and ideally with the Leisure Battery sufficiently discharged to have the B2B running at full power for a little time so you can see the effect on the Starter Battery voltage - it will reduce, but the question to what degree. Also up the engine revs at some point while you are monitoring to see the impact as that changes.