The Dreaded DVLA

[Squiffy]

My Sis in laws V5 has been returned today with "Van with side windows" Oh well. I do have to say that with full blackout side and rear windows it actually describes the van " At first glance" but if studied fully it is unmistakably a Motorhome. What really upsets me is the builders such as Autosleeper and their like have vans which are absolutely no different in looks but are classified as "Motorcaravans" due to lobbying of the ministry of transport and having a "Type approved rating " . To me this is totally unfair and prejudice to home builders who build as good as, if not better in some cases motorhomes that rival the commercial builders in looks and quality, it also seems to me that along with lobbying, certain money has changed hands in attempt by commercial companies to stop self build vehicles lowering the value of their over priced offerings by flooding the market with secondhand "Motorcaravans". I've asked my Sis in law if she wishes to continue the fight but as she is 80 she feels that it really makes no difference as she will probably give it to her daughter when she finally stops driving and does not want to spoil her pleasure of it by entering a legal tussle with the DVLA. Phil

 

[Millie Master]

There must surely be a way to end this stupidity?

As we both know, our own 1st builds were successfully re-registered as a Motor Caravan, so what has changed?

However in current state of political and economic turmoil, it is highly unlikely that any approaches to the elected representatives of our Country will fall on anything other than deaf ears!

Phil

 

[Bouydog]

I think that this is the world we now live in. If you don't have the influence/cash to bend the right ear or grease the right palm then it is virtually impossible to overcome faceless bureaucracy as is quite often demonstrated by our esteemed leaders. Having along with countless others received the same rejection letter warning that reapplying would be a pointless exercise just reinforces the above.
Dave

 

[Pudsey Bear]

The criteria hasn't changed I don't think, it's still down to what a witness to an accident where the vehicle drives off would describe a van IE a van with windows, some might not even know what a proper motorhome looks like anyway if they have never actually looked at one.

It's the DVLA staff which need to be educated IMHO to understand the importance of the proper description to the builder, having said that, some builds leave a lot to be desired inside and out and a van with windows might be a very good description.

Just for the sake of discussion,

What if you took a picture of say a factory PVC conversion and had your build wrapped to look the same minus decals.

 

[Nabsim]

From posts I have seen about this it seems more likely you get motorhome if you use caravan style windows rather than bonded glass.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

If it looks like a duck Etc, I also wonder what supporting evidence applicants send in, When I was on SBMCC a lot got VWW on the V5 and someone designed a letter with what you should write and which pictures would work better, using that even mine with zero decals go the required result.

I wish I'd kept a copy of it, very remiss of me.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I did find this yesterday and It might give an idea of what to do.

I edited my letter to say exactly what I had fitted with brand and model numbers, with pictures of the location of them and for the likes the hob or sink etc showed them working, I took pictures at 90 degrees to the van on all aspects, and also of each corner, I also included a picture close enough up to see the interior with the table set up and laid for a meal, with the nearside door closed to show the number plate.

I also gave them a link to a Ebay dacal seller and told them I was ordering some decals but I need the V5 changes so I could insure it and go on holiday.

Basically do their job for them and leave them no real choice but to do what you ask.

Evidence for DVLA not our van.doc

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[Squiffy]

Hi Pudsey,
Yes as I originally said that at first glance it does look just like a van with side windows, but what really rankles me is that if you put my Sis in laws van along side an Autosleeper 2022 conversion there is no distinguishable difference other than the V5 of hers now reads van with windows and Autosleeper's say " Motorcaravan " and I'd really love to know the truth behind it. Phil

 

[Pudsey Bear]

I should imagine it's very simple Phil, Swift etc will have invited DVLA big wigs to the factory to view the range, and got an agreement to have the V5 filled in correctly at least that part anyway, job done.

What has ruined it is the loss of the satellite DVLA offices where they had this old idea of people talking to people face to face, contact I think it was called, we had one on the Headrow in Leeds and when we bought our Laika the V5 said 3.5t, but the stickers said 3,850kg I rang and spoke to the Leeds office who invited me to bring the van down to them and they would inspect it, so I did, nice chap came out looked at it, checked the data label, the tyre size and said yes no problem and I would receive an updated V5 and to drive as if I already had it as it would be on the system that day.


Not of this letter writing crap we have now.

 

[wildebus]

One key difference between the Companies that do a ground up Motor Caravan build and the converters - be they DIY or conversion companies - is that the people like Autotrail, Autosleeper, Swift, etc take a brand new base vehicle, do their construction and only then is it registered - so the vehicle starts its life on the road as a Passenger Vehicle.
A Self-Builder or a converter will invariably take a vehicle that is initially recorded as a Commerical Vehicle (even if it is brand new for the conversion).
So while saying someones Self-Build will be identical in appearance to an Autosleeper or Autotrail or whatever is one thing, but saying those companies have done dodgy dealings is not really correct I would say.

I am not saying the DVLA stance is right in the way they are now turning away reclassification requests, but it is not right to say a self-build is identical to a factory build as there is a very different administrative process. I am sure it rankles with the builders that don't get the reclassification, but the system BEFORE the DLVA changed their stance was way way to slack and allowed some frankly appalling conversions to be reclassified as "Motor Caravans" and that was not good either.

In many ways, people in the UK are very lucky. Try doing a camper conversion in various countries in Europe and see how far you get once their version of the MOT is needed!!

 

[Squiffy]

I am not saying the DVLA stance is right in the way they are now turning away reclassification requests, but it is not right to say a self-build is identical to a factory build as there is a very different administrative process.

Dave you forget that the DVLA response is always that the vehicle has to look like a motorhome to the general public and emergency services. This makes a laughing stock when you view the likes of an Autosleeper conversion as it has no distinguishing features to a well presented "Secondhand vehicle " conversion as you put it, especially in my Sis in laws case as she has her own cherished number plate on it. The fact that the commercials buy brand new unregistered vehicles should make no bearing on it and just because they are "Type approved" is beside the point, if you take into account the DVLA's Notes on conversion. However mine is personally registered as a motorcaravan so I'm not carrying a wooden cross it just really gets up my nose when it is fairly obvious that these rules are lobbied by the main converters. Phil.

 

[Millie Master]

EXACTLY, well said there Phil............. It doesn't bother me either as mine is correctly registered as well.

However the DVLA's stance might have been brought on by so much absolute dross being presented to them over the years as well as, no doubt, truly dreadful applications!

Phil

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Maybe, but if so they are in the wrong as each application should be judged on its own merits, not one they looked at last week, I did wonder if there is a dedicated V5 application for change department or if they just end up on some random desk and they apply whatever criteria as they perceive it to it.

 

[Nabsim]

If refusal had anything to do with type approval then all conversions should be subject to an IVA or whatever it is called now. I don’t think type approval has anything to do with it does it?
I thought they were allowing a lot more through classsed as motorcaravans now since the Watchdog program and investigations, as I said earlier though the ones I know that got it recently had the caravan style (double glazed) windows.
Does it actually make any different what it says on the V5? If used as a motorhome then it will be classed as that for insurance, ferries, MOT etc

 

[Squiffy]

If refusal had anything to do with type approval then all conversions should be subject to an IVA or whatever it is called now. I don’t think type approval has anything to do with it does it?
I thought they were allowing a lot more through classsed as motorcaravans now since the Watchdog program and investigations, as I said earlier though the ones I know that got it recently had the caravan style (double glazed) windows.
Does it actually make any different what it says on the V5? If used as a motorhome then it will be classed as that for insurance, ferries, MOT etc

Type approved means that the particular type of vehicle has been pre approved I.e. in terms of "Motorcaravan" by the ministry of transport, and so future vehicles being produced can have the attributed term applied to the registration document for future production. Any deviation from the approved type has to be re approved.
So in essence the ministry have approved vehicles built by for again the sake of argument "Autosleeper" although many other commercial builders build to the same all round darkened privacy windows as " Motorcaravans" and so long as the production does not differ from the original approval then the DVLA are required by the ministry to register them as " Motorcaravans". Hence my grievance that when self builders build to the same style they are classed as a van with windows, which to me smacks if nothing else of little Hitler style politics going on by self appointed members of the DVLA putting illegal definitions and personal interpretations of this supposed requirement. Phil.

 

[Pudsey Bear]

Seems a bit like ISO 9001, in effect, so if you build a shite one and it gets approved you have to continue to build shite, but if you build a better one it won't

 

[Millie Master]

Seems a bit like ISO 9001, in effect, so if you build a shite one and it gets approved you have to continue to build shite, but if you build a better one it won't

That is the very best description of the current state of affairs!

 

[Nabsim]

Seems a bit like ISO 9001, in effect, so if you build a shite one and it gets approved you have to continue to build shite, but if you build a better one it won't

You forgot it would need to be consistently shite and documented as such

 

[Pudsey Bear]

No I didn't, they all have to be the same this would include colour, I assume if Fiat changed the model that would need a fresh evaluation.

 

[Squiffy]

It is use and construction which does not include colour or decals Hmmmm and I would defo expect if a different model is used then yes I would think that re application would be required.Phil