Starting a new build- Need insulation, for noise and heat.

[SquirrellCook]

https://motorhomebuilder.com/threads/violating-a-princess.66638/post-877411

What many project managers don’t understand is how to shop. It wasn’t that expensive.

 

[Squiffy]

With all due respect to all who advise the non use of ply for floor base, the use of ply has been the main stay of builders professional and self build since ply was in common use in the early 20's. Admittedly the quality of ply is an issue but so long as the build is well administered and the ply floor is not left open to continual water ingress, ( Any leak or flood sorted with immediate effect) ply will more than be sufficient.
Coach built ply floors especially in the past 50 years (Not so much in the last few years, as new plasticised coverings are now painted over the underneath) have been open to the elements underneath the vehicle, and although there have obviously been cases where the floor has rotted there are many vehicles around now where the floor is as substantial now as when it was produced 30 odd years ago. Bearing in mind that a well fitted floor in a panel van conversion has little chance of sustained water damage, unless there are significant holes in the floor or leaks that are not attended to from internal water runs. Phil

 

[Millie Master]

I think I'm generally aiming for a lower spec build... static caravan rather than bespoke arctic cabin... I've got enough custom assemblies to build, so I'm trying to avoid non-essential extra steps, eg adding a grp process (plus sourcing all the specialist materials).
But thanks for the suggestions, they will get remembered in case I get more time or needs change.

btw I happened to be in the woodyard this morning, and asked about Phenolic Ply. Wow! 12mm at £80 a sheet,
and with an alternative brand Celotex from Wickes at £30... x 2 sheets...
My wife thinks £220 is excessive to be able to walk round the van in socks, for a few cool nights. I didn't even prompt her! But we've never considered it a problem in the VW.

Believe me, if you don't properly insulate the floor YOU WILL REGRET IT ! There is nothing worse than cold feet.

 

[Sprinter 1 cup]

I've been driving around with the sprinters battery bay open in the van , so loud , so do the cab aswell. The only thing I've yet to decide is bonnet and front wings. But still got a couple of meters left of both

 

[HarryInHudds]

Thanks, I'll certainly be interested in hearing (!) the difference of treating the cab floor & scuttle. As that where we travel, logically it's most important... if the factory didn't try very hard to start with.
I remember talk in VW forums that some more passenger orientated T5s have foam injected into the A-post void to block airborne noise. This doesn't sound too hard, unless there are other issues eg damp drainage to worry about.

Did you you the products above with a full celotex in the floor too?

 

[Millie Master]

Thanks, I'll certainly be interested in hearing (!) the difference of treating the cab floor & scuttle. As that where we travel, logically it's most important... if the factory didn't try very hard to start with.
I remember talk in VW forums that some more passenger orientated T5s have foam injected into the A-post void to block airborne noise. This doesn't sound too hard, unless there are other issues eg damp drainage to worry about.

Did you you the products above with a full celotex in the floor too?

Don't whatever you do inject foam into a 'B' pillar that has seat belts passing through them, a friend did and he ended up with a very big £££ bill for having to have the whole cleaned out and new seat belts!

 

[SquirrellCook]

In both Murky and Betty I have insulated with sticky back silvered foam the bulk head and behind the dash. It does make a difference to noise, but is a pain in the back side.

 

[HarryInHudds]

with a bizarre stroke of fortune, we've had some steelwork delivered at work today which came using 40mm acoustic foam as packaging; offcut's from this suppliers main product of housings for stationary diesels. All offcuts are safely snaffled and awaiting fitting to a camper!
I'm also wondering whether a false floor in the cab may balance the seat height raise when swivel plates are fitted, (pedal travel notwithstanding)...

 

[MarkJ]

I'm also wondering whether a false floor in the cab may balance the seat height raise when swivel plates are fitted,

Suggest try before you do it. I have a Relay with swivel plates fitted and the pedal height etc is just right for us

 

[wildebus]

Suggest try before you do it. I have a Relay with swivel plates fitted and the pedal height etc is just right for us

I find the biggest issue with Swivel Plates is not a bigger gap between the seat pad and the floor, but the reduced head room and raised eyeline above the side windows.

I fitted a pair of FASP Swivels to my VW T4 and removed them again for that reason. Even the OH, not that tall at 5' 6", had the eyeline problem.
When I got a Swivel for the VW T5, I got a base with integrated swivel plate and on the VW LT, I went for seats that had integrated swivel mechanisms instead of an additional plate to sandwich between base and seat.

 

[Sprinter 1 cup]

I'm also wondering whether a false floor in the cab may balance the seat height raise when swivel plates are fitted, (pedal travel notwithstanding)...

I've done the same as humble road on one of his builds ! Just put A REMOVEABLE step for r passengers side seat to save weight.
Also I used that 5mm acoustic floor stuff from ebay (as pic above) as the vaper barrier, insted of the silver bubble stuff

 

[SquirrellCook]

I've done the same as humble road on one of his builds ! Just put A REMOVEABLE step for r passengers side seat to save weight.
Also I used that 5mm acoustic floor stuff from ebay (as pic above) as the vaper barrier, insted of the silver bubble stuff

Watch out for the silver bubble stuff, it's not the same as silvered sticky back foam. It's so confusing!

 

[HarryInHudds]

I've done the same as humble road on one of his builds ! Just put A REMOVEABLE step for r passengers side seat to save weight.

I'm quite pleased I'm not pushing the boundaries on this, and am happy to copy George... -IMO one of the very few Youtube builders worth watching.

 

[wildebus]

I'm quite pleased I'm not pushing the boundaries on this, and am happy to copy George... -IMO one of the very few Youtube builders worth watching.

George of HR does some interesting builds I have wondered if there is a UK market for the kind of builds he does? (will people pay £100,000 for a Sprinter campervan?)

 

[HarryInHudds]

I now have a plan for wall and roof insulation: I've not seen this done per se, so invite your comment...
But before ridiculing please remember this is for camping weather, and we don't mind being slightly chilly for the few seconds from getting out of bed before the kettle goes on.
The spray foam firm in Sheffield have failed to return a call 2 times now so I'm taking the hint...

I appreciate the principle of vapour barriers, but doubt the completeness of seal with screws etc, or the longevity. I'm assuming it will leak, but that doesn't matter if every void is ventilated.
So I'm thinking of using Celotex PIR board, but with a managed cavity. Consisting of:
1 A few strips of XPE foam stuck to the wall to act as spacers,
2 25mm Celotex panels roughly cut to each wall panel, stuck to the wall with large blobs of Stixall, leaving a 10-20mm gap.
3 going round the perimeter of each panel with a small bead of expanding foam; to both seal and glue it in. Not enough to get near the skin, and certainly not enough to distort it.
4 Previously adding any chamfers to the PIR needed to link up with the holes in the horizontal ribbing, to allow vertical airflow down the gap.
5 Roof similar, but the ribbing provides the airgap, so spacers aren't needed. I'll carve lateral channels if needed at roof light frames to avoid any blocked spaces. Link to holes in cross beams at front and back to make an air circuit.
6 Possibly stuff vertical ribs with glass wool (as I 've got a roll over from the attic), ensuring it doesn't go to the bottom so any damp in there can drain and down and evaporate. Try to leave a gap near the outer skin??
7 seal inwards holes on visible ribs with Al tape, and possibly over blow-up foam, if I can be bothered to carve it to flat.
8 Cover the visible ribs with stretch carpet, panel over each PIR panel with ply.
9 Provide an entry vent to let into the cavity, possibly with a shutter to stop it on really windy nights. Air exit is provided by the slam vents in the sills.

Cavity allows the foil facing to work... Ventilation to dry out any moisture traps, relatively easy, relatively cheap, "good enough" insulation; horizontals still available for services, smaller pieces allow access or removal access.
Note I'm not using the walls for major furniture, bed and storage is based on a steel frame bolted to the floor and roof structure, and I'm not planning full face ply boarding.

Is this silly, OTT or doomed?

 

[HarryInHudds]

will people pay £100,000 for a Sprinter campervan?

A few months ago Exploria were advertising their Demo / Show van T6 for £90k (+Vat....!)
Ok it had every extra, but it's still half the van a LWB Sprinter is.
Are HR / Georges builds £100K or $100K? Slight difference... Even in the USofA there will be some in the US who wouldn't want a full Winnebago, even if they've got the cash.

 

[wildebus]

Once you add the VAT (US quoted prices never include state sales tax) and the base vans which are always more expensive, I think it is pretty well a $1= £1 situation.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I now have a plan for wall and roof insulation: I've not seen this done per se, so invite your comment...
But before ridiculing please remember this is for camping weather, and we don't mind being slightly chilly for the few seconds from getting out of bed before the kettle goes on.
The spray foam firm in Sheffield have failed to return a call 2 times now so I'm taking the hint...

I appreciate the principle of vapour barriers, but doubt the completeness of seal with screws etc, or the longevity. I'm assuming it will leak, but that doesn't matter if every void is ventilated.
So I'm thinking of using Celotex PIR board, but with a managed cavity. Consisting of:
1 A few strips of XPE foam stuck to the wall to act as spacers,
2 25mm Celotex panels roughly cut to each wall panel, stuck to the wall with large blobs of Stixall, leaving a 10-20mm gap.
3 going round the perimeter of each panel with a small bead of expanding foam; to both seal and glue it in. Not enough to get near the skin, and certainly not enough to distort it.
4 Previously adding any chamfers to the PIR needed to link up with the holes in the horizontal ribbing, to allow vertical airflow down the gap.
5 Roof similar, but the ribbing provides the airgap, so spacers aren't needed. I'll carve lateral channels if needed at roof light frames to avoid any blocked spaces. Link to holes in cross beams at front and back to make an air circuit.
6 Possibly stuff vertical ribs with glass wool (as I 've got a roll over from the attic), ensuring it doesn't go to the bottom so any damp in there can drain and down and evaporate. Try to leave a gap near the outer skin??
7 seal inwards holes on visible ribs with Al tape, and possibly over blow-up foam, if I can be bothered to carve it to flat.
8 Cover the visible ribs with stretch carpet, panel over each PIR panel with ply.
9 Provide an entry vent to let into the cavity, possibly with a shutter to stop it on really windy nights. Air exit is provided by the slam vents in the sills.

Cavity allows the foil facing to work... Ventilation to dry out any moisture traps, relatively easy, relatively cheap, "good enough" insulation; horizontals still available for services, smaller pieces allow access or removal access.
Note I'm not using the walls for major furniture, bed and storage is based on a steel frame bolted to the floor and roof structure, and I'm not planning full face ply boarding.

Is this silly, OTT or doomed?

I think you need to spend an afternoon in your van with some mates when it’s cold and wet. It won’t be long before it’ll rain inside too. It’ll happen on a cold and wet summers day too.

 

[MarkJ]

now have a plan for wall and roof insulation: I've not seen this done per se

I haven't seen the 'managed cavity' idea, but I get the point.

Where would the condensation drain to? I suspect it won't evaporate fast enough to avoid the need for drainage.

It's not what I did, so I can't offer actual experience: I used 25mm PIR as well, sometimes 50mm where it would fit. I glued it all round to try and make it air tight and then used aluminium tape on the front face to seal air gaps. Took ages....

 

[HarryInHudds]

I think you need to spend an afternoon in your van with some mates when it’s cold and wet. It won’t be long before it’ll rain inside too. It’ll happen on a cold and wet summers day too.

I'm still having reasonable insulation, I'm just not betting the van's sills on on a dubious vapour barrier having perfect sealing.
And we've got lots of roof windows to reduce the humidity, before it condenses.