Ply lining

[whitevanwoman]

:hammer: Me and my trusty 18 yr old Black and Decker drill are about to go out and do battle with the rivets holding the ply lining on the sides of the van in place, so that I can insulate behind it and also hopefully track down the source of the dampness behind it.

It's just occurred to me that when I'm ready to put the ply back on, how do it fix it in place as I don't have a riveter?

I only have a hand torque screwdriver so trying to screw the lining into metal is going to be blooming hard work if not impossible :mad2:

Any suggestions? :anyone:

 

[tranivanman]

hi wvw
what i did was to drill throught the ply into the metal posts and use self tapping screws, you only need small ones just long enough to go through the ply and into the metal work.
I dont mean the sides of the van!! the panel surround if you get my drift! im sure someone will have a better idea, drilling out pop rivets is very difficult ive found.

is your van leaking at the back near side by the rear door, thats were mine is leaking but not got round to looking at it yet, when youve done yours you can do mine as you'll no what to do,hahahaha god luck.

tranivanman

 

[outtolunch]

12V Cordless Drill Driver, VDD12

at this price not going to be brilliant but should save some blisters when fitting screws

and if you are putting a lot of screws in new positions the self drilling screws are worth getting

 

[whitevanwoman]

Thanks for the replies. Drilling the heads off the rivets was the easy bit!

The ply is wedged solid between the wooden floor (one thick layer of solid wood) and the panel frame at the bottom so I've managed to pull it forward from the top and in the corner next to the rear door, the ply is so rotten that it's simply fallen apart at floor level but it's still attached securely at floor level next to the sliding door on the side and only breaking the ply off at the bottom will free it so it'll have to stay like that whilst I insulate behind it.

:mad2: Nothing is ever straight forward...

Although there's no actual running wetness on the inside of the bodywork behind the ply lining (but we have had a couple of dry windy days here) there's lots of damp dust and dirt right in the bottom corner underneath where the rear light panel is, together with tell tale rust in the area where the screws are for removing the rear light cover and I'm fairly convinced that the leak is either from the light panel or somewhere directly above it. There is a small bare metal rust patch right on a bend in the door frame which could be the culprit. Otherwise maybe a panel seam somewhere in that area although I've already Sikaflex'd the full length of the seam joining the back of the roof to the rear door frame last year. So I've literally painted the whole area, along every single seam, join, nut and bolt, along the gutter and round the light panel etc with Dr Tolleys Crack Cure (he he he, juvenile but the name always makes me giggle) and am going to try to keep the van as aired as possible, maybe even putting in a heater overnight, to try to dry it out so I might be able to figure out where the leak is with the ply off next time it rains.

The paintwork now looks a bit of a mess as the Dr Tolleys is very runny and its all streaky and mixed in with dirt and green stuff but hopefully it might block the leak for now and over the summer I will do a better patch up job with Sikaflex and will be giving the van bodywork a good clean up, touch up and polish as I've found a couple of spots of bubbling which will need sorting fairly soon.

So it's going to be at least a few days before it's dried out enough for me to insulate and then put the ply back in place :mad2: but I suppose that gives me time to get a power screwdriver.

 

[whitevanwoman]

BTW, scuse my ignorance but exactly what is a self tapping screw? I know it means that you don't need a nut on the other end because they are designed not to work loose but how are they different to normal screws?

And how are they different to self drilling screws?

 

[landydriver]

.

 

[Tbear]

Hi WVW,

Self Tapping Screws 8 - Search Results | Screwfix.com

You may well be the sourse of damp. That corner may just need a bit of insulation and a damp proof membrane.

Richard

 

[whitevanwoman]

12V Cordless Drill Driver, VDD12

at this price not going to be brilliant but should save some blisters when fitting screws

and if you are putting a lot of screws in new positions the self drilling screws are worth getting

Thanks for the link but do I really need one of those if I already have one of these...?

http://www.nine220volts.com/images/drillKD564CRE.jpg

I've only ever used it as a drill, not as a screwdriver as you can't adjust the speed, although there are 2 settings on the top, which (I think) relate to different speeds (marked 1 and 2, with a slide button). There is also another setting which you change (I think) depending on whether you are drilling into masonry or wood. I always thought it would be too fast and difficult to control and a bit scary to use for screws!

I did get a 4.8v electric screwdriver a few years ago but to be honest, it was pretty rubbish and only useful if holes were pre drilled and screws were a nice easy fit. My hand torque screwdriver was better on stubborn screws. I've been wondering about buying another electric screwdriver but that experience has put me off and I would definitely be looking for one with more torque and power. Any recommendations?

 

[whitevanwoman]

Hi WVW,

Self Tapping Screws 8 - Search Results | Screwfix.com

You may well be the sourse of damp. That corner may just need a bit of insulation and a damp proof membrane.

Richard

And exactly what are you trying to say there???!!! :raofl: No I don't wee in the corner!!!


Seriously, it's definitely a leak as I've found fresh running water in the past when I've stuck my fingers through the holes in the panel near the light fittings. And it's already insulated but I've had to pull the insulation loose over the past 6 months to try to let the air circulate. I suspect that if we'd had wet weather the past couple of days there would be fresh wetness. But I don't think it's a massive leak, as it's never been completely soaked just very very damp and over the summer it virtually dries out (which is why I kind of forgot to sort it out last summer).

 

[jogguk]

BTW, scuse my ignorance but exactly what is a self tapping screw? I know it means that you don't need a nut on the other end because they are designed not to work loose but how are they different to normal screws?

And how are they different to self drilling screws?

The diferences are a bit blurred these days as a lot of modern woodscrews are hardened.

Self tapping screws: Hardened steel usually a coarse open thread. They need to be harder than the steel panel so the screw bites into the steel and cuts it's own thread. Also available in stainless steel for visible areas.

Depends on what size drill you used to drill out your pop rivets, use the same holes with a self tapping screw slightly larger diameter to refix. Self tappers need a slightly smaller pilot hole drilled in the steel first for them to work (or drill through the ply and steel in one go much easier).

Self drilling self tapping screws have a hardened drill bit tip so no predrilling required, cannot be used without a powewr screwdriver though and usually these types have big ugly hex heads.

John

 

[Tbear]

And exactly what are you trying to say there???!!! :raofl: No I don't wee in the corner!!!


Seriously, it's definitely a leak as I've found fresh running water in the past when I've stuck my fingers through the holes in the panel near the light fittings. And it's already insulated but I've had to pull the insulation loose over the past 6 months to try to let the air circulate. I suspect that if we'd had wet weather the past couple of days there would be fresh wetness. But I don't think it's a massive leak, as it's never been completely soaked just very very damp and over the summer it virtually dries out (which is why I kind of forgot to sort it out last summer).

Hi WVW,

No I meant the orifice women use the most

Did you not say that you had plugged the leaks and treated the rust.

The van is warmer in summer so much less condensation. Not unusual for water to run down uninsulated metal in winter when its 20 degrees colder.


Richard

 

[jogguk]

Could the water leak be coming from the rear light cluster itself?

The trick in finding water leaks is to look with a bright torchlight focused on the suspect area. Get a friend outside with a watering can!


John

 

[whitevanwoman]

Hi WVW,

No I meant the orifice women use the most

Did you not say that you had plugged the leaks and treated the rust.

The van is warmer in summer so much less condensation. Not unusual for water to run down uninsulated metal in winter when its 20 degrees colder.


Richard

I thought I'd maybe cured the leak last year with the Sikaflex but obviously not. I'm 99.99999% sure it's not condensation as most of the van is now insulated except behind the side panel ply linings, and there is no evidence of any dampness anywhere else except that corner. And I'd covered all the exposed bare metal in silver bubble wrap insulation when I first got the van over a year ago but when I noticed the dampness at the bottom of the ply in that corner (and only in that corner, nowhere else) I pulled the insulation away to have a look and let the air circulate and the actual wetness was inside the cavity at the rear of the van where the rear lights are located, nowhere else. I checked the other side of the van in the same place and that was fine and had been insulated in exactly the same way.

I'd been planning to sort it out properly over last summer whilst insulating behind the side plys but summer came and went and it never got done. I'm in the process of trying to redesign the layout and so I decided before I start using the van again on a regular basis, I would get the insulation behind the ply done now, so that I can crack on with the layout. And it's only today that I've realised that the dampness in that corner is as bad as it was this time last year, so the work I did with the Sikaflex this time last year hasn't solved the problem (although that does mean that it eliminates certain areas as being the source of the leak).

 

[outtolunch]

Thanks for the link but do I really need one of those if I already have one of these...?

http://www.nine220volts.com/images/drillKD564CRE.jpg

I've only ever used it as a drill, not as a screwdriver as you can't adjust the speed, although there are 2 settings on the top, which (I think) relate to different speeds (marked 1 and 2, with a slide button). There is also another setting which you change (I think) depending on whether you are drilling into masonry or wood. I always thought it would be too fast and difficult to control and a bit scary to use for screws!

I did get a 4.8v electric screwdriver a few years ago but to be honest, it was pretty rubbish and only useful if holes were pre drilled and screws were a nice easy fit. My hand torque screwdriver was better on stubborn screws. I've been wondering about buying another electric screwdriver but that experience has put me off and I would definitely be looking for one with more torque and power. Any recommendations?

the trouble with your drill for tightening screws is that there is no torque setting so several things can happen, the screw overtightens and crushes the ply which is then liable to pull away, the screw head can chew up or snap, and the screwdriver bit will get chewed up.

you can spend a lot more on cordless drills but can you justify spending several hundred pounds to avoid some blisters, my cordless drills are from the last millennium and only a 9.5 and 12 volt and they don't keep their charge but in their day they were better quality and are fast chargers which you do not get with the cheap drills but one of these new is probably just as good if not better than mine but don't expect it to still be going in 20 years time.

 

[Viktor]

There is a marine epoxy filler that is excellent for filling in gaps. It's about £7 from a marine shop and you mix it from two tubes and put it on like polyfilla. It dries quickly and after 24 hours can be sanded and painted. It's very easy to use - I've repaired a plastic lawnmower and a glass fibre pod with it as it's handy to use in small spaces and is strong.

If you put this round the unit against the metal it would probably strengthen any weak areas. Then you could seal over the top with the silkaflex.

 

[whitevanwoman]

Could the water leak be coming from the rear light cluster itself?

The trick in finding water leaks is to look with a bright torchlight focused on the suspect area. Get a friend outside with a watering can!


John

Quite possibly from the light cluster, so I've given the seam around the light cluster several coatings of Capt Tolleys (fantastic stuff btw) but when my mechanic had a look, he thought it was coming from above the light fitting. You can't really see because the running wetness is actually inside the vertical cavity which runs from top to bottom of the van into which the light cluster and door hinges are fitted and apart from a couple of holes you can't get into the cavity from the inside, even with the ply off to see where it's coming from. So the only way of sourcing it is to try to get a very small hand through a hole as far as possible to see where the wetness is coming from and then look outside for possible causes.

Last year I sikaflexed and Capt Tolley'd all along the gutter rail, around the roof rack fittings, around the hinges, along every single seal and joint, but that hasn't cured it. So today I've gone over it all again with Capt Tolley's and around the light cluster, and over the top of the rust patch I found, and along all rubber seals etc etc a couple of times so now it's just a case of waiting for it to dry out and then a trip to the jet wash to see where it's coming in.

Although I am thinking about drilling a hole through the floor so that the wetness just runs straight out which might be easiest in the long run!!! :hammer:

 

[whitevanwoman]

:cheers: Thanks to everyone for their replies, much appreciated, keep them coming as it's making me think about things in a more lateral way, eliminating possibilities etc.

Ha ha, so much for popping out for a couple of hours this afternoon to remove the ply, add insulation and replace ply before teatime! One day my van will no longer be a work in progress! But I'll probably be so skint by then that I won't be able to afford any fuel to go anywhere!

 

[77W]

Hi Whitevanwoman, now this is bit of a longshot but is there any chance of putting some sort of dye ( food colouring or similar ) arround the suspect area & seeing if the water that comes in contains the colour too ? maybe not that easy in practice though

From experence I would say light clusters do tend to leak a bit as they age, & for what it's worth I have just had to seal up one of the welded seams on the roof of my works transit, I could not see or feel where the leak was coming from on the outside & despite using plenty of silicone sealent on the outside it wasn't untill I ran a bead of sclicone on the inside of the van too that I stopped the leak ( where the leak was coming in on the inside of the roof was easy to spot ) good luck with it though leaks sure do drive you nuts !!!

As for the self tapping screws maybe a friend will have a drill you could borrow or even a local tool hire shop will let you hire one for half a day or a day ? it would deffo be worth using a powerd screwdriver/drill , I couldn't think of how hard it would be to do them by hand :scared:

 

[whitevanwoman]

Hi Whitevanwoman, now this is bit of a longshot but is there any chance of putting some sort of dye ( food colouring or similar ) arround the suspect area & seeing if the water that comes in contains the colour too ? maybe not that easy in practice though

From experence I would say light clusters do tend to leak a bit as they age, & for what it's worth I have just had to seal up one of the welded seams on the roof of my works transit, I could not see or feel where the leak was coming from on the outside & despite using plenty of silicone sealent on the outside it wasn't untill I ran a bead of sclicone on the inside of the van too that I stopped the leak ( where the leak was coming in on the inside of the roof was easy to spot ) good luck with it though leaks sure do drive you nuts !!!

As for the self tapping screws maybe a friend will have a drill you could borrow or even a local tool hire shop will let you hire one for half a day or a day ? it would deffo be worth using a powerd screwdriver/drill , I couldn't think of how hard it would be to do them by hand :scared:

The food colouring idea might be worth a go once I've got it dried out a bit. I'm going to try to get some photos tomorrow to explain why it's so difficult to see the source from the inside. Even if I can't see fishing around with kitchen roll should show up any colour.

The Capt Tolleys has worked really well on 2 other leaks (one around a whirly gig roof vent which I couldn't get at with the Sikaflex nozzle) and one around the seal on plastic tap on a water container so I'm hoping that, with the amount I've put on today, that it will at least work long enough for it to dry out a bit so that I can then jet wash it.

There's another leak too, diagonally opposite in the front corner of the cab on the drivers side, just where the cab roof meets the windscreen, right in the front corner where the sunvisor hinge is. I'm pretty sure it's probably the windscreen seal but as the windscreen has got a crack in it and I need to phone Autoglass to get it sorted, I'm going to wait till I've done that as I may need a new windscreen. Just to be on the safe side though in the meantime, I've painted Capt Tolleys around the windscreen seal and along all seams, joins etc within about 3 foot of it.

It's a good job I love my van! And that I've spent too much money on repairs now to consider getting rid of it!

I've had plenty of blisters over the years with all the DIY I've done at home and on other vehicles (am enthusiastic though not hugely skilled) but it's so time consuming doing it all by hand too, that I think I probably will buy a power screwdriver but one that is more than 4.8v like the last one I had. I don't mind spending up to about £30 on one if it's going to be worth it but if it's only going to last a year then I'll just get the cheapest one I can find and consider it "disposable".

I must admit I've had more than my money's worth out of my Black and Decker drill - I think it was about £30 in 1995 (I remember getting it out of Littlewoods catalogue and paying it off weekly ) so I know that with tools it is very much a case of you get what you pay for. I've found that the cheap screwdriver heads from poundshops etc just bend or break as do cheap drill bits, cheap pliers, cheap spanners etc, but sometimes you just have to buy what you can afford and accept the limitations. But the 4.8v power screwdriver I used to have was pretty much a waste of money.

 

[77W]

Yep worth getting that windscreen looked at , the one on my van was quite loose ( un known to me though ) I only found out by chance when I had to change the fuel tank & as I lifted up the rubber matting in the cab area it was soaking wet underneath, in the end I changed the windscreen & the problem was solved, I only mention it because it it may be worth you checking under the matt in your cab area too just in case ?

Like youself the van I bought needed a bit of effort to bring it up to scratch, well worth it in the end though, especially when the weekend comes round & you are deciding where to go in it this time.

Just a thought with regard to a drill/ screw driver if all else fails you may be able to get a cheap electric one but instead of using a drill bit put in in it's place one of the self tapping screws & use that to make some pilot holes, that way even though it may spin too fast for screwing you can make the holes you need then go back & screw the screws in by hand much eisier, not ideal I know but better than doing the whole lot by hand or spending more than you had hoped to on a power screwdriver, Shame your not closer otherwise I would have lent you my drill.