Legal or illegal?

[Millie Master]

On one of the self builld FaceBook groups, someone has just (proudly) posted this photograph of the spare wheel mount on the back door of his Renault Master.

Apart from the fact that I don't like to see wheels mounted in the exposed open air without full covers, I am forced to ask does the position of this wheel/tyre comply with the law?
My reason for suggesting/asking this is that even from directlly behind, part of the N/S rear light is obscured whereas from an even slightly oblique angle this light becomes totally obscured and surely that is ilegal?

Phil

 

[Nabsim]

It is certainly more likely to leave you open to a tug from the police. Without seeing it in the flesh and rereading construction and use etc I wouldn’t really commit further. I know a lot of custom Harleys used to have the number plate on one side of the back wheel and we’re legal, that leads me to think there may be a specified distance away from the vehicle for visibility but that’s only my guess

 

[mistericeman]

I'd say that the passenger side rear light is, obscured enough to risk a tug from a particularly bother police officer (should you happen to actually spot one)
And in the event of an accident your insurance company to drop your cover to third party (especially IF you haven't declared the carrier to them)

 

[Sprinter 1 cup]

As all know you wont be tugged/ pulled today if vans tax and insured if its not herting someones feeling on line you should get away with it. as them are not as bright as once ago.

3 monkeys come to mind.

Proper not good.

 

[wildebus]

There is certainly no law against having a spare wheel mounted on the rear door of a vehicle, but it should not obsure the lights or cover the numberplate of course.
I would say that one does and it is surprising that someone should go to the trouble and expense of getting a carrier made and not making sure the wheel position does not end up obsuring any lights.

When I did my carrier, I made sure the plate for the wheel was inboard enough ....

PS. The numberplate is not obsured by the spare wheel. it is the height the picture is taken from. A clearer image of the plate and wheel ...

IMG_20171014_145922 by David, on Flickr


Talking about wheels obscuring lights, this may be of passing interest .... This is my old RAV4 (with rear mounted wheel)

RearEnd by David, on Flickr
On RHD RAV4s, Toyota only fitted a door strap that allowed the rear to open to around 70 degrees. This was to prevent the spare wheel obscuring the lights when the door was opened. I would guess this was a legal requirement? However on LHD RAV4s, the rear door opened the full 90 degrees and the right lights got fully obscured.
We could only assume that is was a rule about ensuring the Off-side lights would always be visible whatever the rear door position. That limited opening was very inconvenient thought so one of the first mods owners did was to fit the full length strap (some reflective tape on the door edge took care of the requirement of have off-side reflectors visible).

 

[RoaminRog]

I was under the impression that lights and number plates had to be visible from 45 degrees each way (left and right) making a right angle of vision.

 

[Squiffy]

It really depends on if the rear light cluster is obscured from directly behind the vehicle, as the mot testers manual ( Some years ago admittedly) states that the sidelight/ brake light and indicators should be visible from the rear of the vehicle. As if you where at 90degs or more from the rear of the vehicle the opposite light cluster would be obscured in anycase. So in my opinion going by out of date testers manual if the light cluster is visible from the rear then its legal.
I had many controversial discussions with ( VOSA) In my time over American imported cars and their legality to be used on British roads and I can tell you that I won the majority of (discussions ) as the law at that time was a bit hit and mis. Phil

P.s. Certainly though Phil your surmise that this particular instance would be illegal would if I were still moting be failed as the n/s light cluster is in my view obscured from the rear of the vehicle.

P.ps. What is even more of a puzzle is he clearly shows his registration number. So clearly he is not aware that a road law has been broken .

 

[mistericeman]

It really depends on if the rear light cluster is obscured from directly behind the vehicle, as the mot testers manual ( Some years ago admittedly) states that the sidelight/ brake light and indicators should be visible from the rear of the vehicle. As if you where at 90degs or more from the rear of the vehicle the opposite light cluster would be obscured in anycase. So in my opinion going by out of date testers manual if the light cluster is visible from the rear then its legal.
I had many controversial discussions with ( VOSA) In my time over American imported cars and their legality to be used on British roads and I can tell you that I won the majority of (discussions ) as the law at that time was a bit hit and mis. Phil

P.s. Certainly though Phil your surmise that this particular instance would be illegal would if I were still moting be failed as the n/s light cluster is in my view obscured from the rear of the vehicle.

P.ps. What is even more of a puzzle is he clearly shows his registration number. So clearly he is not aware that a road law has been broken .

This is the wording in the MOT testers manual...

"The precise position of lamps is not part of the inspection. You should check visually that they are at about the same height and distance from each side of the vehicle."

That doesn't mean that it contravenes construction and use regulations though

 

[Millie Master]

All very interesting and valuable responses.

Quite amazingly on this FB group the overall feeling is basically what chance is there of getting caught!

 

[Squiffy]

This is the wording in the MOT testers manual...

"The precise position of lamps is not part of the inspection. You should check visually that they are at about the same height and distance from each side of the vehicle."

That doesn't mean that it contravenes construction and use regulations though

Then the position of lamps has been down graded since I was an MoT tester/ Authorised examiner licenced operator. As when I was involved the position lamps had to be within specific limits from the outer edge of the vehicle hence my arguments with pre VOSA, over American imported cars. Maybe it has been changed due to my and others arguments over the silly rules over " Position" lights .Phil

 

[mistericeman]

Then the position of lamps has been down graded since I was an MoT tester/ Authorised examiner licenced operator. As when I was involved the position lamps had to be within specific limits from the outer edge of the vehicle hence my arguments with pre VOSA, over American imported cars. Maybe it has been changed due to my and others arguments over the silly rules over " Position" lights .Phil

There ARE still strict rules on position/types of lights etc as far as construction and use is concerned...

But very little cross checks on that as far as MOT test is concerned (I personally don't think the MOT test will be around for much longer sadly.... As it seems to be evolving into pretty much a tick list)

 

[Millie Master]

There ARE still strict rules on position/types of lights etc as far as construction and use is concerned...

But very little cross checks on that as far as MOT test is concerned (I personally don't think the MOT test will be around for much longer sadly.... As it seems to be evolving into pretty much a tick list)

Patently there has to remain some kind of rigorous testing of all vehicles.
Having lived over there for 10 years, personally I believe the French Control Technique tests are better as they can only be carried out by certified independant establishments that have absolutely no links/connection to any commercial garage and they are very closely monitored by the authorities.
Most cars and motorbikes start being tested when they get to 4 years of age and from then on every other year.
All commercial vehicles have their tests starting when they are 4 years of age, but from then on it is every year.
The strange small and very slow micro cars and certain types of small bike never have to be tested as can be so patently seen with many of them being death traps on wheels!

 

[MarkJ]

Quite amazingly on this FB group the overall feeling is basically what chance is there of getting caught!

Irrespective of the legality - wouldn't you think it was a good idea to make sure people behind could clearly see your rear lights? If only from a self-preservation point of view?

 

[Nabsim]

@Squiffy @mistericeman do you know if there is a distance from the vehicle used for viewing the lights (sort of think used in roadside eyesight tests)? Regardless people should use a bit of common sense (controversial I know lol) and avoid anything that COULD result in a tug as who knows what else could be found on any given day. It’s the same reason I am polite with police if they pull me when driving

I know it used to be very strict to get a vehicle through an IVA test when I was involved with it but once passed a lot of folks I knew altered their vehicles. Yes they could then fall foul of construction and use if police wanted to do them but don’t recall it happening in our circle. It would be construction and use regs used if police wanted to charge me if I carried people in the rear of my motorhome. A lot of folks could unknowingly be contravening parts of that I suppose.

 

[Nabsim]

Patently there has to remain some kind of rigorous testing of all vehicles.
Having lived over there for 10 years, personally I believe the French Control Technique tests are better as they can only be carried out by certified independant establishments that have absolutely no links/connection to any commercial garage and they are very closely monitored by the authorities.
Most cars and motorbikes start being tested when they get to 4 years of age and from then on every other year.
All commercial vehicles have their tests starting when they are 4 years of age, but from then on it is every year.
The strange small and very slow micro cars and certain types of small bike never have to be tested as can be so patently seen with many of them being death traps on wheels!

I think a move to two year testing would result in a lot of potentially unroadworthy vehicles being on our roads. There is still a good number of vehicles that only get work done to pass the MOT, that’s likely to increase with rising cost of living as well.

 

[mistericeman]

I think a move to two year testing would result in a lot of potentially unroadworthy vehicles being on our roads. There is still a good number of vehicles that only get work done to pass the MOT, that’s likely to increase with rising cost of living as well.

I've seen some pretty dodgy looking 'Classics' kicking around since the MOT exemption came in for them...

I really do believe that a professional set of eyes cast over all vehicles is a good thing (I still have my exempt landrovers tested for peace of mind)
BUT I do have a very firm but fair mot garage that I use for all my vehicles...
And they know that if there's anything needed it usually gets done before a fail or an advisory.

 

[Millie Master]

Irrespective of the legality - wouldn't you think it was a good idea to make sure people behind could clearly see your rear lights? If only from a self-preservation point of view?

So bloody true, but there again that's the mindset of some of these FB people so many of whom have attidues to life and road safety that beggar belief!!

 

[RV2MAX]

Page 170 sets out angles of visibility

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1065789/individual-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual-passenger-vehicles.pdf

 

[Nabsim]

Page 170 sets out angles of visibility

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1065789/individual-vehicle-approval-inspection-manual-passenger-vehicles.pdf

Glad I dont build anything any more lol. On page 173 it shows a 15 degree angle outwards from light going back 25 metres. Does that mean they would be okay partially obscured as the charts on earlier pages look a lot stricter?

Thanks for that link though

 

[trevskoda]

Just stick it in the middle.