Do I temper my spend or not?

[wildebus]

Grappling with a slight quandary on which product to buy for my Motorhome....

Going to get a Victron Multiplus, with the intention that it will charge the batteries (LiFePO4 Lithium Bank) and also provide 240V power for stuff like Electric Hob, Instant Pot, 3-way Fridge and Water Boiler - all those dependant on how much battery power I have available of course. Oh, and plus a Hairdryer I would imagine!

Now nothing in that list is above around 1200W - Hob maybe 800W, Instant Pot 900W, Fridge 200W, Boiler 850W - so the Multiplus 12/2000 would be a perfectly usable solution
There is also one other 240V item I haven't mentioned and that I wouldn't want to run off the batteries at all - the Gas/Mains Space Heater. This can be selected to run at 500W, 1000W or 2000W.

Now the quandary ... If you are on a hookup and you put the heater on say 2000W as you want some heat and you are paying for the hookup anyway, and then you turn on say the hob, you could overload the Hookup and trip the breaker. Annoying and inconvenient.

If you get a Multiplus 12/3000, that has two 240V Outlets - one that essentially goes through the inverter part - so could be used for the Hob, Fridge, etc when not on hookup, and another outlet that is only active when hooked up - so that would feed the Space Heater and no danger of running the heater when no mains
The key thing about having the Mains only outlet on the Multiplus rather than just 'alongside' and independant of the Multiplus is that the total current draw from the mains hookup is monitored - and so if you set the current limit at say 10A due to a limited site EHU, when the heater is running at 2000W and you turn on the 800W hob, the maximum current drawn from the mains will not be 2800W (2000 boiler + 800 Hob) but 2400W (240V x 10A) and the 400W difference will come from the Battery using the "Power Assist" feature of the Multiplus.
If the Space Heater is powered on a line outside of the Multiplus, it will have no knowledge of the current draw and the power assist feature won't work properly

So the 12/3000 is the better product. but it costs over £200 more. It has a bigger inverter capability and bigger charger as well, but the 12/2000 ones are big enough really for my needs, so it is down to the question of is the ability to monitor and control the EHU current worth the extra dosh?

opinions on a e-postcard ....

 

[Tookey]

I get the impression that you want the 3000 but are struggling to justify it.....I don't think you need to justify it, many peoples hobbies include spending money on whacking golf balls into little holes or catching fish and putting them back and they have nothing to show for it (you will) but the key is they enjoy it. Your MH is your hobby, set it up as you want and enjoy

 

[Millie Master]

Grab life by the balls Dave and forget the cost.................. oh and @Tookey I used to do 5 or 6 rounds of golf a week and I did have lots to show for it, the trouble was I didn't like having to polish the silver ware so often, but all the prizes were very nice to have!

Phil

 

[mark61]

Guess it depends what else is on your shopping list.
But £200 spread over many years use of vehicle, pennies really.

On the other hand, how many times a year, will you use 2000W heater, and how long do you run that for, easy to warm van up, turn it off when you need power else where. Juggling power is all part of the fun, or is it?

I know, I've been no help what so ever.

 

[Tookey]

I suspect the thought of having to juggle power sends shivers down Wilde's back

 

[SquirrellCook]

Once you get into the bigger multiplus's the options grow. Also the quiescent current is higher with the bigger units.
And there was me thinking about a 1200 or 1600 and do I really need anything that big?
One that has struck me, they mention maximum efficiency. But what about minimum efficiency?
Using my 800w victron inverter can cost me twice the current when charging batteries from it. I am aware that I'm charging 24 volts from 12 volts.
Nothing is easy when making these decisions. Also sizes and weight needs to be considered.

 

[wildebus]

Guess it depends what else is on your shopping list.
But £200 spread over many years use of vehicle, pennies really.

On the other hand, how many times a year, will you use 2000W heater, and how long do you run that for, easy to warm van up, turn it off when you need power else where. Juggling power is all part of the fun, or is it?

I know, I've been no help what so ever.

absolutely none at all!


Cheers

Actually .... I would likely use the space heater if hooked up a fair bit and probably leave on overnight, but at the lower 500W setting, or maybe 1000W in the Winter? (I am a bit of a wimp in terms of heat and do like it warm. Used to leave the electric blanket on in the camper for most of the night (and that off-grid as well )

 

[wildebus]

Once you get into the bigger multiplus's the options grow. Also the quiescent current is higher with the bigger units.
And there was me thinking about a 1200 or 1600 and do I really need anything that big?
One that has struck me, they mention maximum efficiency. But what about minimum efficiency?
Using my 800w victron inverter can cost me twice the current when charging batteries from it. I am aware that I'm charging 24 volts from 12 volts.
Nothing is easy when making these decisions. Also sizes and weight needs to be considered.

the minimum efficiency is a key point that I never mentioned and TBH forgot about in the comparison of the two even though it is a key point.
When they are on standby, no problems, but when active the bigger inverter will have a greater overhead for the same load. I have noticed this in my Camper when for 95% of the time when the 2400W inverter is on, it is supplying a 40W load (the Fridge) - less than 2% of its capability!

 

[wildebus]

Once you get into the bigger multiplus's the options grow. Also the quiescent current is higher with the bigger units.
And there was me thinking about a 1200 or 1600 and do I really need anything that big?
One that has struck me, they mention maximum efficiency. But what about minimum efficiency?
Using my 800w victron inverter can cost me twice the current when charging batteries from it. I am aware that I'm charging 24 volts from 12 volts.
Nothing is easy when making these decisions. Also sizes and weight needs to be considered.

It wasn't until I checked the schematics for the connections over the weekend that I noticed the 12/2000 didn't have the 2nd AC outlet. I thought in that range the differences were basically inverter and charger capacities (and physical size & weight of course).
It might be worth checking details about the 1200 and 1600 to see if there is any key feature other than capacities that are different and may be important?

Just remembered there was a thread about this 2nd AC Outlet actually on the 12/3000 on this forum (or maybe Motorhomer?) about how the "mains only" outlet could actually also be driven by the inverter depending on some setting (st3v3 found this out via a question posted on the Victron Community)

 

[Silver sprinter]

I like you were honest enough to mention the hairdryer my thoughts are it's for yourself so I think you are worth the extra money

 

[Red Dwarf]

Buy what you really want. If this year has taught us anything, it is that there’s an added fragility to our existence and it’s no time to sell yourself short or procrastinate. These are brave words from me, never eager to let too much escape my wallet...

 

[wildebus]

Yup, I think it will be the 12/3000

Which leads me to ANOTHER quandary!

Do I buy another 12/3000 for the Motorhome, or remove the 12/3000 I have fitted in the Campervan? And get something more basic for that in its place? How much of a premium are people willing to stump up for the best kit when they go to look at a camper to buy?
If I took out the 12/3000 out the camper and fitted something basic but that would drive the hob and water heater, and charge the batteries, I could knock off say £500 off the asking price when I come to sell in the next 6 months.
If you were looking at two identical vans, and one had a Multiplus and the other had a no-name Inverter and a no-name charger, would you pay £500 extra for the Victron equipped one?

 

[Tookey]

Yup, I think it will be the 12/3000

Which leads me to ANOTHER quandary!

Do I buy another 12/3000 for the Motorhome, or remove the 12/3000 I have fitted in the Campervan? And get something more basic for that in its place? How much of a premium are people willing to stump up for the best kit when they go to look at a camper to buy?
If I took out the 12/3000 out the camper and fitted something basic but that would drive the hob and water heater, and charge the batteries, I could knock off say £500 off the asking price when I come to sell in the next 6 months.
If you were looking at two identical vans, and one had a Multiplus and the other had a no-name Inverter and a no-name charger, would you pay £500 extra for the Victron equipped one?

In my opinion remove the 12/3000 and put 'no name' in the camper. I suggest the majority would not want to pay the extra £500 as a working system will be what all they want and the few that know their stuff will just consider it as a future upgrade.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I think if I looked at a van filled with "Trevor Specials" I'd assume it had been built on a tight budget and would have hidden horrors waiting to haunt me. (sorry Trev )
When I read of people stripping out goodies to sell a van, I just think, standard van damaged filled with stuff to take to recycling.

 

[Tookey]

I think if I looked at a van filled with "Trevor Specials" I'd assume it had been built on a tight budget and would have hidden horrors waiting to haunt me. (sorry Trev )
When I read of people stripping out goodies to sell a van, I just think, standard van damaged filled with stuff to take to recycling.

......but you like high standard finishes as is shown in your build. David wont put rubbish in there so they get a working system and save 500 quid which they can invest into the van in their chosen area if they want to. David also gets the 3000 in his MH. Personally when I was viewing I was only buying the engine, chassis, body and insulation, everything after that was considered but of secondary importance

 

[wildebus]

Well, I think I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy another 12/3000

It is such an electrics-centric installation with the Water Heater, Induction Hob, Biggish (460W) Solar Array and Big (645Ah) Battery Bank that anyone who would be looking to buy this kind of campervan would want a top-end Inverter to drive the kit and a powerful charger to charge the big battery bank.
As well as the kit noted above, the Camper has a Victron BMV-712 installed, as well as a Victron 100/30 MPPT Solar Controller and a Victron Cyrix ct-230A Battery Combiner (aka VSR), so all top-end there.

So given all that, I think swapping out the Multiplus might 'downgrade' not just the actual components installed but the whole 'ethos' of the build?

 

[wildebus]

I am missing the mega battery bank in Clarence the Campervan, I have to say (the Batteries in the Motorhome are pretty well knackered after 12 years)

Just plugged in the EHU (first time in 3 weeks). Since the last charge, ignoring solar which would usually make him self-sufficient in Summer and half of Sprint/Autumn, taken over 400Ah out the battery! (try doing that with a pair of 100Ah Lithiums )

Checking out the current status, Battery bank needs 391Ah to get fully charged, but is not any lower than 47% SOC (that actually gives an effective 800Ah bank due to the low discharge rate (the C rating) for this size of bank).
And you can see the paultry charge rate of just 124.20A going into the battery bank (I am getting 7A from Solar but charge is also going to Starter Battery as well, so evens it out).

A mains Charger delivering ~120A at the battery plus a 2500W PSW inverter would probably be in the region of £700+ to buy, so just the pure cost difference is not big enough to downgrade the setup.

 

[Tookey]

Well, I think I am going to have to bite the bullet and buy another 12/3000

It is such an electrics-centric installation with the Water Heater, Induction Hob, Biggish (460W) Solar Array and Big (645Ah) Battery Bank that anyone who would be looking to buy this kind of campervan would want a top-end Inverter to drive the kit and a powerful charger to charge the big battery bank.
As well as the kit noted above, the Camper has a Victron BMV-712 installed, as well as a Victron 100/30 MPPT Solar Controller and a Victron Cyrix ct-230A Battery Combiner (aka VSR), so all top-end there.

So given all that, I think swapping out the Multiplus might 'downgrade' not just the actual components installed but the whole 'ethos' of the build?

Fair play, I hope you find someone that appreciates your set up. Let us know when it goes on ebay so we can read the 3 page electrical system description.....try and leave out the graphs and spread sheets!!

 

[Tookey]

If you want to PM me a brief description of the camper and price feel free as I know a couple of people that are hanging on until spring before they get serious about viewings.

 

[wildebus]

If you want to PM me a brief description of the camper and price feel free as I know a couple of people that are hanging on until spring before they get serious about viewings.

I am planning of doing a brief (!) write up on the Camper very soon

One key thing that is important to note is that it is rated at 4.6t, so is a PHGV and as such can only be driven by someone with a "proper" HGV license or a C1 License (so someone who passed their car test before 1997).
What I can also say is that it has an guaranteed insured valuation of £14k, (and that includes the value of all the Victron kit, solar and mega battery bank so not a lot I reckon )