Bloody Stixall Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Millie Master]

When I originally built 'Millie', for the roof lights and windows I initially used Sikaflex when fitting the windows and roof lights, but then after a few months I checked the adhesion of the Sikaflex and although it was sticking like sh-- to the paintwork of the van it didn't appear to have bonded to the plastic of the Seitz windows or the MPK rooflights, so after exchanging a lot of messages with various highly regarded and well respected converters amongst us, I removed all the windows and rooflights , cleaned all the surfaces thoroughly and then refitted everything using black Stixall at the perfect temperature, job done!

Roll on 5and a bit years and I discovered some filthy brown water in the shower room at the back of the van and drips of the same water coming down from the rim of the MPK rooflight in there.
On removing the rooflight, much to my dismay I discovered that all 4 roofing lat tanalised wood spacers I had used had almost totally rotted away, but also that the metal of the roof surrounding the cut out aperture (that I thought had fully treated with rust proofing and paint during the construction) was rapidly rusting away.
So I cleaned everything to nigh on surgical standards, cleaned off and treated all the rust, then applied several coats of a high quality paint. Made new timbers and then bedded down the rooflight onto fresh Stixall......... Job done, I thought!

Roll on until last week when I went into her, only to discover pools of water on the floor along with some very discoloured wood, this time at the next rooflight further into the living space, but this was a rooflight that I thought I had thoroughly checked last year, so it looks like I will be stripping this one out and more than likely carrying out exactly the same process as I did last year.

So my observation or rather question is, do products such as Stixall have a user life, after which they become useless and they start letting in water and if so, is there a better product?

 

[wildebus]

Ref the rust, what about the galvanised treatment from the factory? (just wondering how it could be rusting away or is that purely a surface protection?)

 

[mistericeman]

Ref the rust, what about the galvanised treatment from the factory? (just wondering how it could be rusting away or is that purely a surface protection?)

According to a good friend (Pro body guy that works for Bentley etc)
And speaking to some of the guys at the various car plants I work at.

A lot of 'Galvanised' bodies aren't galvanised in the way that a set of galvanised gate hinges are...

The metal work would buckle and warp at the temps true hot dip galvanising requires
(Halewood had to reduce the oven bake temps when they switched to building the X type from the Escort as the X400 bodies warped to hell when baked at van temps)
It can be a rather thin phosphate dip type coating....
Fine as a extra layer of protection BUT not massively resistant to abrasion/cutting etc...
And once its broken the rust can set in really quite quickly.

 

[Squiffy]

Ref the rust, what about the galvanised treatment from the factory? (just wondering how it could be rusting away or is that purely a surface protection?)

About 4 years ago I was reversing in at night beside my shed/workshop and came to a crunching stop, I'd hit the eve of my workshop luckily little damage to the eve of the shed but bent the top righthand rear quarter of the van, not seriously but enought to crinkle the metal work and lose about a 5cm x 8cm amount of paint down to the galvanising. 4 years on after years of I'll repair it next month, there is absolutely no indication of rust. But of course there was no tear through the steel as would be by the fitting of a roof light so not quite the same situation, though non the less impressive in so much any other vehicle the accident damage if left like that would almost rusted through by now. Phil

 

[mistericeman]

About 4 years ago I was reversing in at night beside my shed/workshop and came to a crunching stop, I'd hit the eve of my workshop luckily little damage to the eve of the shed but bent the top righthand rear quarter of the van, not seriously but enought to crinkle the metal work and lose about a 5cm x 8cm amount of paint down to the galvanising. 4 years on after years of I'll repair it next month, there is absolutely no indication of rust. But of course there was no tear through the steel as would be by the fitting of a roof light so not quite the same situation, though non the less impressive in so much any other vehicle the accident damage if left like that would almost rusted through by now. Phil

By and large Apparantly the 'Galv/phosphate' coating acts like a bag around the bare metal....
As long as its bent and not torn/cut it'll still protect the metal (paint works to protect the metal in much the same way...)

 

[MarkJ]

start letting in water

Someone on another forum who's done more of this than me said that all rooflights will inevitably leak at some point - it's a when not an if. Cheery thought.

But I would have hoped for >5 years, I think. Do you think the Stixall became porous, or do you think the metal surface rusted away under it?

 

[Sprinter 1 cup]

It's shit galvanising and once cut I found less than a year on the sprinter painted parts are rusting. knocked the rear reversing camera off with a low hanging branch while reversing in a bay ! Och. So up step ladder took bolts out and the rim of the hole had 5mm rust arond the in parts the foam sill now broken . broke led light bar . But how did it get so dirty ? As pic

 

[SquirrellCook]

And people wonder why I'm so anal about some of the things I do.
I think wood against treated steel is great, as long and the wood never gets wet. I'm sure something corrosive comes out of it. Wet can be humidity as well as condensation.
I've had treated steel cars that have had body repairs and they rust like there's no tomorrow if the coating is damaged.
The coatings/treatment can vary from manufactures. As mentioned a hot phosphoric acid treatment prior to priming works well. Railway stuff I used to make required this. Now some have a zinc electro plating and some are made from a zinc impregnated steel. The amount of zinc on them is next to nothing but it seems to work.
What I never trusted until I started playing with them is polyurethane sealant primers. Like glass primer for bonded windows. It's amazing stuff, but expensive with a short shelf life.
Good old fashioned galvafroid paint works well, but I wonder how well it bonds. Trevor sings the praises of zinc loaded epoxy paint. But I wonder if it's just so tough it holds the rust back longer.
Some of the lead chromate primers worked well too, but you can't get them anymore.

I'm not saying you are, but there are so many "I've done it once, so I'm an expert" 's now you get blinded by bullshit and don't know what's good.
Just so sorry that you have to go though the misery of rework.

 

[Squiffy]

Someone on another forum who's done more of this than me said that all rooflights will inevitably leak at some point - it's a when not an if. Cheery thought.

But I would have hoped for >5 years, I think. Do you think the Stixall became porous, or do you think the metal surface rusted away under it?

As Millie after 5 years my rear siez roof light started leaking in the o/s rear corner where water builds in the roof corrugation. We were away when it started but I had my "Sticks like shit" and gun with us so I stuck my head above the open light dried the area along the back and plastered along the corrugation and over the edge of the Siez plastic foot, as I noticed that as Millie had the adhesive sealant was lifting away from the under side of the roof light. This was meant to be a temporary repair till we got home, two years later its still there and has been through major weather since and not leaked again. It seems to me that the best way of sealing these roof lights is to seal from the roof and over the edge of the roof light skirt so that there is no way that a build of water can seep between the sealant and flat mounting surface of the roof light. Years ago I would never have done this from pride of it looking good, but I've since realised that you can't see it so what the hell so long as it never leaks. I've since done the same to the shower room roof light and the front roof light. Phil

 

[Millie Master]

Ref the rust, what about the galvanised treatment from the factory? (just wondering how it could be rusting away or is that purely a surface protection?)

The galvanising is all 100% OK, the problem is that when I cut the holes for the rooflights then the coating was broken, which is why I then spent quite some time smoothing the cut line edges and then (I thought) treating the bare steel edges with metal treatment and then 2 thick coats of Hammerite prior to the remainder of the fit out.

 

[Millie Master]

Someone on another forum who's done more of this than me said that all rooflights will inevitably leak at some point - it's a when not an if. Cheery thought.

But I would have hoped for >5 years, I think. Do you think the Stixall became porous, or do you think the metal surface rusted away under it?

As previously written, I think the edges to my cut lines through the galvanised body were not perfect and this combined with the no doubt fact that the damnable Stixall was no longer Sticking All despite my efforts at the time of the build to ensure all the surfaces were perfectly clean!

 

[Millie Master]

As Millie after 5 years my rear siez roof light started leaking in the o/s rear corner where water builds in the roof corrugation. We were away when it started but I had my "Sticks like shit" and gun with us so I stuck my head above the open light dried the area along the back and plastered along the corrugation and over the edge of the Siez plastic foot, as I noticed that as Millie had the adhesive sealant was lifting away from the under side of the roof light. This was meant to be a temporary repair till we got home, two years later its still there and has been through major weather since and not leaked again. It seems to me that the best way of sealing these roof lights is to seal from the roof and over the edge of the roof light skirt so that there is no way that a build of water can seep between the sealant and flat mounting surface of the roof light. Years ago I would never have done this from pride of it looking good, but I've since realised that you can't see it so what the hell so long as it never leaks. I've since done the same to the shower room roof light and the front roof light. Phil

Phil; I am of a mind to do just as you have done and clean the roof as thoroughly as I can and then gob on loads of Stix(whatever) over the entire area as I am damned if I want to start ripping out all the roof lining and along with my failing health, the last thing I want to be doing is to be crawling around on top of the roof or balancing on the steps whilst I achieve a nicer looking repair that might not last as long!

OH BUGGER !

Phil

 

[wildebus]

The galvanising is all 100% OK, the problem is that when I cut the holes for the rooflights then the coating was broken, which is why I then spent quite some time smoothing the cut line edges and then (I thought) treating the bare steel edges with metal treatment and then 2 thick coats of Hammerite prior to the remainder of the fit out.

just wondering as I though the galvanising process protected the metal completely and not just a surface thing

 

[SquirrellCook]

Galvanising is a hot dip process and zinc coats the steel. The zinc is sacrificial and corrodes instead of the steel. The life is about 20 years unpainted. To paint it requires an etch primer to do it properly.

 

[Squiffy]

just wondering as I though the galvanising process protected the metal completely and not just a surface thing

Galvanising has always only been a zinc coating of iron or steel Dave, the main differences is how it is applied electrolysis or hot dipped. Galvanised steel is usually guaranteed for 20 years against rust if its done properly of course. Phil

P.s. You have to be very careful when welding galvanised steel as the fumes if its heavily galvanised can indeed be fatal, I've ended up quite ill in the past welding galvanised steel.

 

[Millie Master]

just wondering as I though the galvanising process protected the metal completely and not just a surface thing

No Dave, when I cut the holes for the rooflights and windows I broke the surface skin of the dip galvanised metal sheets, exposing the unprotected inner steel.
Normally I would have hoped that diligent surface protection of this steel would have worked, but patently there were some faults with my painting and this is obviously where water gained access and in the almost trapped environment where nothing would in effect dry out, in the warm to hot sunny days the humidity inside this area would have no doubt resulted in the vastly accelerated degradation of the metal and indeed all the wood as well.

As I wrote before........... oh bugger

 

[Nabsim]

The sealant/adhesive hasn’t been degraded by UV by any chance has it? I know a lot of products are affected by UV but I thin’ you can stop that by painting over them

 

[Millie Master]

The sealant/adhesive hasn’t been degraded by UV by any chance has it? I know a lot of products are affected by UV but I thin’ you can stop that by painting over them

Thanks for that, but no I honestly don't think UV has been the culprit, the problem more than likely has been caused by the jerking movement of up periscope - down periscope (yes I am an ex rugby union player and can well recall the fun we used to have when going to away matches with the rooflights on the buses!) that is the movement of opening and closing the darned rooflights!

 

[Millie Master]

An update:

So first of all I rigged up a tightly fitting tarpaulin so that I can remove all 3 rooflights and leave them removed for a few months whilst the wood which is still in very good solid condition fully dries out.
Despite the wood being very solid, never the less I will still be painting all reachable areas with wood hardener.

Having closely inspected the worst affected rooflight, it actually looks like most areas where I used Stixall are all in the main good and sound. However my mind is now made up and mad as it might sound, I have decided to totally clean off all the Stixall and the infill UPVC strips that I used to fill the gaps between the ridges of the corrugated roof.
When everything is removed, thoroughly rubbed down and generally spotless I now plan to fill the valleys with body filler so that when rubbed down, the entire roof in the area of the rooflights is smooth, I will then be repainting it with Rustoleum paint before finally refitting the rooflights using ??????? and that is my conundrum, do I use Stixall again or Sikaflex and if so, which type is best?

Thanks one and all

Phil

 

[SquirrellCook]

An update:

So first of all I rigged up a tightly fitting tarpaulin so that I can remove all 3 rooflights and leave them removed for a few months whilst the wood which is still in very good solid condition fully dries out.
Despite the wood being very solid, never the less I will still be painting all reachable areas with wood hardener.

Having closely inspected the worst affected rooflight, it actually looks like most areas where I used Stixall are all in the main good and sound. However my mind is now made up and mad as it might sound, I have decided to totally clean off all the Stixall and the infill UPVC strips that I used to fill the gaps between the ridges of the corrugated roof.
When everything is removed, thoroughly rubbed down and generally spotless I now plan to fill the valleys with body filler so that when rubbed down, the entire roof in the area of the rooflights is smooth, I will then be repainting it with Rustoleum paint before finally refitting the rooflights using ??????? and that is my conundrum, do I use Stixall again or Sikaflex and if so, which type is best?

Thanks one and all

Phil

Just one thing to bare in mind and I expect you already know, body filler absorbs water.