Bit of an electrical quandary ....

[PeteS]

I've been looking at this for my own setup and just wondered if you'd considered temperature switches, the mechanical kind, I was considering 5C they come in NC or NO contacts, I believe the contacts are active above that temp so a NC one connected to 0V could control the B2B and another NC could connect the aux together on the Multiplus, removes the current overhead of the temperature controller.

I'm thinking of using one to control a relay on the output of the Victron Blue Smart to dop it charging below 5C

KSD301 N/C 5 C 10A Normally Closed Temperature Switch Bimetal Disc Klixon | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for KSD301 N/C 5 C 10A Normally Closed Temperature Switch Bimetal Disc Klixon at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[wildebus]

I've been looking at this for my own setup and just wondered if you'd considered temperature switches, the mechanical kind, I was considering 5C they come in NC or NO contacts, I believe the contacts are active above that temp so a NC one connected to 0V could control the B2B and another NC could connect the aux together on the Multiplus, removes the current overhead of the temperature controller.

I'm thinking of using one to control a relay on the output of the Victron Blue Smart to dop it charging below 5C

KSD301 N/C 5 C 10A Normally Closed Temperature Switch Bimetal Disc Klixon | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for KSD301 N/C 5 C 10A Normally Closed Temperature Switch Bimetal Disc Klixon at the best online prices at eBay! Free delivery for many products!

www.ebay.co.uk

Sounds like a handy little unit

You wouldn't need to use it to control a relay on the output if you used the Victro Orion-Tr Smart Charger - you could feed the output of the temp switch into the Remote on the Charger directly to control it. So with that setup you would add in the temp control for under a fiver

 

[PeteS]

I’d use the relay for the blue smart mains charger as that hasn’t got a remote control input.
As I see it one would control the Orion direct, the other the mains charger via a relay
they would then mount on a piece of ally which can be glued to the battery.

 

[wildebus]

I’d use the relay for the blue smart mains charger as that hasn’t got a remote control input.
As I see it one would control the Orion direct, the other the mains charger via a relay
they would then mount on a piece of ally which can be glued to the battery.

ah sorry, when you said Blue Smart I was think Orion smart, not mains. Yes, use it to drive an Mains SSR
(I had this setup in my shed, using the BMV relay output configured to enable an SSR when either the main battery dropped below a certain SOC or the aux battery dropped below a certain voltage, and the battery charger would start charging (used a 3-output Blue Smart so the batteries were still independant))

 

[xsilvergs]

@wildebus interesting you had difficulties when link two devices by their remote pins. I have read on the Victron Community group that when using 2 Orion TR Smarts in parallel one most use the remote pins on both to ensure they turn on and charge together.

I'll wait for you to sort it out , thanks.

 

[wildebus]

@wildebus interesting you had difficulties when link two devices by their remote pins. I have read on the Victron Community group that when using 2 Orion TR Smarts in parallel one most use the remote pins on both to ensure they turn on and charge together.

I'll wait for you to sort it out , thanks.

only had one device with a remote control pin. the other device was the multiplus input so quite a different device. I would expect if they were both Orion TR-Smart, they would have taken the same control line without a problem.

Using two in parallel, if you HAVE to use the remote pin to activate the unit, you are removing the automatic on/off feature. Seems weird to have to do that and takes away a key feature. I don't like the sound of that at all.

I'll be installing the Ablemail 60A B2B on my Motorhome and in the same way that you can have a pair of 30A Orion B2Bs installed, the 60A Ablemail B2B is actually a pair of 30A B2Bs in the one case, and each can be configured independently and can either have the same settings, or, if you want, different ones. The Orions are the same in that respect, except in their own casings.
If I were running a pair of Orion B2Bs I don't think I would do as you say the community suggests, but would setup the controllers to work in a kind of primary/secondary configuration. Maybe it would not work for some reason, but I would definately give that a go first.

 

[xsilvergs]

only had one device with a remote control pin. the other device was the multiplus input so quite a different device. I would expect if they were both Orion TR-Smart, they would have taken the same control line without a problem.

Using two in parallel, if you HAVE to use the remote pin to activate the unit, you are removing the automatic on/off feature. Seems weird to have to do that and takes away a key feature. I don't like the sound of that at all.

I'll be installing the Ablemail 60A B2B on my Motorhome and in the same way that you can have a pair of 30A Orion B2Bs installed, the 60A Ablemail B2B is actually a pair of 30A B2Bs in the one case, and each can be configured independently and can either have the same settings, or, if you want, different ones. The Orions are the same in that respect, except in their own casings.
If I were running a pair of Orion B2Bs I don't think I would do as you say the community suggests, but would setup the controllers to work in a kind of primary/secondary configuration. Maybe it would not work for some reason, but I would definately give that a go first.

I don't have either in my setup yet and was trying to get my head around the "Engine shutdown detection" and the "input voltage lock-out" in the Victron demo of the phone app. The Victron info seems a bit sparse on these two.

 

[wildebus]

The "Engine Shutdown Detection" is misleading. It reports that if the Starter Battery Voltage is below the "On" Threshold and the unit is not disabled remotely. So that reported status is an assumption and not actually based on if the engine is running or not (e.g. detecting D+ signal).

The Input voltage lock-out I have not looked into. I don't know for sure as not tried the mode, but I think it is used when you are using the device as a Power Supply rather than a Battery Charger. In that mode you chose an output voltage and no input voltage. So I assume the device will be on all the time the input voltage is above whatever the lock-out voltage is set to (10.7V is the default I think?).
I am tempted to use the Orion-Tr I have in that mode actually between the Battery Bank and the 12V System as a way to have a nice steady 12V regulated supply regardless of if the batteries are higher or lower than 12V (but bit of a pricey device to do that).

 

[xsilvergs]

The "Engine Shutdown Detection" is misleading. It reports that if the Starter Battery Voltage is below the "On" Threshold and the unit is not disabled remotely. So that reported status is an assumption and not actually based on if the engine is running or not (e.g. detecting D+ signal).

The Input voltage lock-out I have not looked into. I don't know for sure as not tried the mode, but I think it is used when you are using the device as a Power Supply rather than a Battery Charger. In that mode you chose an output voltage and no input voltage. So I assume the device will be on all the time the input voltage is above whatever the lock-out voltage is set to (10.7V is the default I think?).
I am tempted to use the Orion-Tr I have in that mode actually between the Battery Bank and the 12V System as a way to have a nice steady 12V regulated supply regardless of if the batteries are higher or lower than 12V (but bit of a pricey device to do that).

Having looked at the wording in the "Engine shutdown detection" and the words "starts to determine" I wonder if this is to do with smart alternators and their varying voltage.

 

[wildebus]

I don't think it is specifically to do with that, just two different settings to prevent the device clicking on and off repeatedly as the load is disconnected and reconnected.

 

[xsilvergs]

I don't think it is specifically to do with that, just two different settings to prevent the device clicking on and off repeatedly as the load is disconnected and reconnected.

You could be right, just found this:

 

[wildebus]

One of the problems with Voltage Activated B2Bs is that they can come on when you put a mains charger on the Starter Battery to charge it. This obviously increases the starter battery voltage as it charges - and when it hits the On threshold the B2B is set for, the B2B turns on and power is transferred (as it assumes the Engine is running)
And if the Mains Charger is less powerful than the B2B, the effect of attempting to charge the starter battery can be to drain the starter battery! I had this when I connected a 20A Mains Charger to my Starter battery and had a 40A Redarc B2B fitted. Took the starter down to around 11.5V until the lesiure batteries didn't need much of a charge and then the 20A from the mains could actually go to the Starter as intended.
It was also a perfect example of the on and off thresholds coming into play as the B2B kept going off and on again as the starter battery dropped and then recovered (but less each time).
With the Victron, you could connect the remote input to the ignition so it will never come on if the ignition is off - that would fix the issue.

 

[PeteS]

Did you work out with the Orion wether the H and L inputs were an OR function or an AND function, I havent got mine yet but was looking to put temperature control on the L and ignition on the H. If they are an OR function then its not going to work.

 

[xsilvergs]

Did you work out with the Orion wether the H and L inputs were an OR function or an AND function, I havent got mine yet but was looking to put temperature control on the L and ignition on the H. If they are an OR function then its not going to work.

Figure 4 Only an ignition switch shows the 2 pins shorted together, I may have read that this isn't correct though.

We need somebody to try this, @wildebus ;-)

It's a shame Victron does clarify this, there a a few people on the Victron group who have asked similar questions.

 

[PeteS]

Forget that function question, I just have to use a 5C temperature switch in series with an ignition feed to the H input to stop it charging at cold temperatures

 

[wildebus]

Did you work out with the Orion wether the H and L inputs were an OR function or an AND function, I havent got mine yet but was looking to put temperature control on the L and ignition on the H. If they are an OR function then its not going to work.

Figure 4 Only an ignition switch shows the 2 pins shorted together, I may have read that this isn't correct though.

We need somebody to try this, @wildebus ;-)

It's a shame Victron does clarify this, there a a few people on the Victron group who have asked similar questions.

I think it is quite clear unless I am misunderstanding the questions people are asking.

You can allow the unit to be activated by having:
1) A High Signal on the H input pin; or
2) A Low Signal on the L input pin; or
3) H and L pins connected together

This clearly means that for option 1) and option 2), EITHER will allow activation and you could, if you had a reason to do so, have two separate control inputs to allow the unit to activate.
It must be the case as if the input is floating, it is no different to it being unconnected (and so unused).

Sorry to say this, but I have to say that many of the questions being raised generally on the Victron Community are being done so by people who either just don't know what they are doing, or are too lazy to read the manuals and just ask a question for others to look up. It is getting a mite frustrating

Ref Fig 4 and the two inputs linked and also connected to +ve via a switch. I would say that is incorrect.

 

[xsilvergs]

This may be drifting from the original topic but as we're talking about the Orion TR-Smart I'll ask my question.

If I used the H triggered from a D+ signal can either the 'Input voltage lock-out' or the 'Engine shutdown detection' be used to stop the Orion from trying to charge the LB while the engine is at idle? Once the engine is above idle, the alternator has ample cooling from its fan and its output voltage has risen I'd be happy for it to start charging the LB.

 

[wildebus]

I tried to choose certain words to describe how the control works but basically it is like this.

The Remote input - be it a High on the H, a Low on the L or the H & L linked is essentially a master disable if NOT present
If the remote is not active, then the Charger will NEVER be on regardless of any other setting.

So in your example, if you have the H fed by the D+ signal, the charger will never switch on when the engine is off. So bearing that in mind ...

The "Engine shutdown detection" really is solely a voltage detection thing. What you would have to do as far as I can see is put a voltmeter on the starter battery and log the voltages as you increase the engine speed. But you have other factors coming into play ... Headlights being an obvious one. how do you decide what voltage to set at which would work during the night as well as daytime?

What you could do (although I don't know how you would extract it) is to connect to the EOBD Port, read the revs and at your chosen RPM, create a trigger signal and feed that signal in the H input instead of the D+.
You could maybe have a look at the "Torque" app available on Android and which communicates with Bluetooth EODB Readers to get some ideas maybe how to do that?

I understand however that most decent alternators are self-managing and won't allow themselve to self-destruct by heat by overdelivering current so is it actually something that is needed to be considered?

 

[xsilvergs]

I tried to choose certain words to describe how the control works but basically it is like this.

The Remote input - be it a High on the H, a Low on the L or the H & L linked is essentially a master disable if NOT present
If the remote is not active, then the Charger will NEVER be on regardless of any other setting.

So in your example, if you have the H fed by the D+ signal, the charger will never switch on when the engine is off. So bearing that in mind ...

The "Engine shutdown detection" really is solely a voltage detection thing. What you would have to do as far as I can see is put a voltmeter on the starter battery and log the voltages as you increase the engine speed. But you have other factors coming into play ... Headlights being an obvious one. how do you decide what voltage to set at which would work during the night as well as daytime?

What you could do (although I don't know how you would extract it) is to connect to the EOBD Port, read the revs and at your chosen RPM, create a trigger signal and feed that signal in the H input instead of the D+.
You could maybe have a look at the "Torque" app available on Android and which communicates with Bluetooth EODB Readers to get some ideas maybe how to do that?

I understand however that most decent alternators are self-managing and won't allow themselve to self-destruct by heat by overdelivering current so is it actually something that is needed to be considered?

David,

Thank you for your reply, loads of info and points to consider and things I hadn't thought about.

Geeky Phil has said the alternator fitted to a Fiat has overheat protection, I guess a thermistor fixed to the alternator would be an easy way to sense its temperature.

I did try using data from the EOBD using an old linux program and a cheap Chinese Bluetooth dongle once before, I have to admit it was entirely unsuccessful. I will research the data format.

 

[wildebus]

That is an idea - use the temp of the alternator rather than the engine revs to control the remote input activation