240V vs 12V lighting - Discuss!

[wildebus]

On the thread I created about making alternative light shade/frontispieces for now-obsolete parts, an interesting point was raised about why a vehicle would have Mains lighting installed when there is a 12V system in place already.
Good question but as not relevant to that thread, I've created this thread to discuss that here and keep things on-topic

 

[wildebus]

To the post

they are 240V because they are 240V and how Autotrail do it for those lights. I think it is pretty typical for factory Motorhomes and Caravans to have both Mains and Battery Lights. If no 240V mains available, then I just use the standard 12V lights instead (of which there are numerous).
I could have rewired to the Leisure Battery instead and fitted 12V E14 Bulbs but actually I like the idea of having both types available as I could disconnect the 12V system and still have working lights

Trev made the point

Surly if on hook up the battery charger will work and feed the hab battery so 12v lights only would save having two sets of lights, seems daft to me.

Good point but ..... We need to bear in mind the Motorhome in question is from 2008.

At that time, firstly LED lighting was not so common and lights were nowhere near as efficient in terms of power use
The lights are question are fitted with 40W bulbs and there are two of them. In terms of lighting, 80W is not actually that much light (many domestic bulbs used to be 100W after all).
That is 80W of power to come from somewhere. Get it from the battery and that is around 6.66A of current being pulled from the battery. That is a devilish amount of current for lights
But yes, you could use a battery for that (the typical battery would only last a night with that draw on top of the other draws it has though).

But then, what is the problem if on hookup and the battery charger is going? Well, the second thing is the size of the chargers.... The battery chargers in the typical Motorhome is sized to work with the typical battery fitted in it and how that can charge.
The Sargent PDUs of various flavours are very common in British Motorhomes and don't have very large charging capabilities (bigger the charger, greater the cost). The highest charge I see going into my batteries with the Sargent mains charger is 10A. If 6.66A of that was going in just to feed two lights, it would leave a paltry amount to actually charge the battery itself and with other 12V loads demanding power, it is quite likely the batteries would never get a charge while those lights were on!

Fast forward 10 years and LED lighting is standard throughout at a 10th of the power draw, aftermarket chargers fitted to the typical self-build camper are more powerful and batteries are bigger, so in many respects you would very likely not fit 240V lights now - and I would not be surprised if they are no longer fitted to factory-built Motorhomes
But 10 years ago or so, with the old technology and systems that were commonly used at the time, it does actually make sense to bypass the battery to avoid extra draws and concentrate power where it is best used (so 240V lighting to allow battery charger to put as much charge as possible into the battery)

 

[Squiffy]

To the post

Trev made the point



Good point but ..... We need to bear in mind the Motorhome in question is from 2008.

At that time, firstly LED lighting was not so common and lights were nowhere near as efficient in terms of power use
The lights are question are fitted with 40W bulbs and there are two of them. In terms of lighting, 80W is not actually that much light (many domestic bulbs used to be 100W after all).
That is 80W of power to come from somewhere. Get it from the battery and that is around 6.66A of current being pulled from the battery. That is a devilish amount of current for lights
But yes, you could use a battery for that (the typical battery would only last a night with that draw on top of the other draws it has though).

But then, what is the problem if on hookup and the battery charger is going? Well, the second thing is the size of the chargers.... The battery chargers in the typical Motorhome is sized to work with the typical battery fitted in it and how that can charge.
The Sargent PDUs of various flavours are very common in British Motorhomes and don't have very large charging capabilities (bigger the charger, greater the cost). The highest charge I see going into my batteries with the Sargent mains charger is 10A. If 6.66A of that was going in just to feed two lights, it would leave a paltry amount to actually charge the battery itself and with other 12V loads demanding power, it is quite likely the batteries would never get a charge while those lights were on!

Fast forward 10 years and LED lighting is standard throughout at a 10th of the power draw, aftermarket chargers fitted to the typical self-build camper are more powerful and batteries are bigger, so in many respects you would very likely not fit 240V lights now - and I would not be surprised if they are no longer fitted to factory-built Motorhomes
But 10 years ago or so, with the old technology and systems that were commonly used at the time, it does actually make sense to bypass the battery to avoid extra draws and concentrate power where it is best used (so 240V lighting to allow battery charger to put as much charge as possible into the battery)

Can't really add to that, it's all been said . Phil

 

[wildebus]

Out of curiosity I just looked at the 2019 Autotrail Technical Brochure and there is no mention of 230V lighting, but just "12V LED low energy lighting", which is really what you would expect in a current Motorhome.

Going back to the 2007 Technical Brochure and you have " 230v Mains lighting (all lo-line versions are dimmer controlled)" as well as a selection of other 12V lighting fitted ( "12v Under locker fluorescent lighting", "Underlocker 12v reading lights", and "Concealed 'aircraft type' over-locker lighting")

 

[SquirrellCook]

As I'm not the kind of person to fiddle with others bits, I'm not experienced in what bits they have to fiddle with. So just based on observations. When we stop on sites with mains hookups, others tend to panic over getting plugged in as fast as possible. Even plugged in, their lighting does not seem that bright. If out in the wilds, so not connected it looks like they have glow worms in jars. I guess they have enough light to function, but it's just an observation.

 

[wildebus]

As I'm not the kind of person to fiddle with others bits, I'm not experienced in what bits they have to fiddle with. So just based on observations. When we stop on sites with mains hookups, others tend to panic over getting plugged in as fast as possible. Even plugged in, their lighting does not seem that bright. If out in the wilds, so not connected it looks like they have glow worms in jars. I guess they have enough light to function, but it's just an observation.

I think you are likely right.
I actually have quite a lot of 12V interior lighting in my Autotrail as standard - light for kitchen, hidden lighting above all cupboards, 4 Reading Lights under cupboard (fitted with LED Bulbs but not sure if those bulbs were standard), 2 more Reading lights in Overcab Bed, 3 lights in bathroom, light above door, light in drinks cabinets and finally light in wardrobe (phew! that is actually a lot of lighting!).
But .... the Mains Lights on full are still the brightest standard lights in the van!

The previous owner has - probably as he was a wild-camper - added around 7 metres of LED strip lighting which is nice and bright and outshines the lot (I actually need to fit a dimmer as it can be a bit too bright).
(I hate not having enough light when I want it )

 

[Squiffy]

Talking of plugging in and shore power about 5 years ago we went on the Romantic route through Germany then on through Switzerland and France with my brother and his wife and Sister and her husband they had a Hymer each and we went in our Conversion, my sister and her husband were insistent on having a 230v plug in each night, I can't tell you how much of a pain in the backside it became not to mention the cost of a commercial campsite each night, such a pity really as we did have a great time, but spoilt to some extent by finding a commercial site each day. BTW she really did not need the power but she was frighten of not having enough power to run their lights in the evening which was totally unfounded, but caused all of us about an extra £500. Phil

 

[trevskoda]

Yep mine is all 12v except for the 230v fridge which works of a smart inverter, but then mine is a self build and not a factory job.
Any one with a older van should get a smart charger and led light conversion done,things have moved on.

 

[Deleted member 4404]

I fitted mains in our van during the conversion. There is only one socket and the only time I've used it is on the drive with a frost stat heater over winter. We cook on gas, 12v comp fridge and mk 1 whistling water heater - kept it simple.

 

[Millie Master]

A very dear friend of ours has bags fitted to both of his outlets so until this year he had always headed to full service sites where he has been able to change his bags in the privacy of a large shower/loo compartment.

Roll on to this year and we persuaded him that as his small Eriba caravan has a quite decent sized loo then he ought to try stopping on a CL and we would go along just to lend a hand in any way we could if it were needed............ It wasn't and they loved the experience.

So with some more persuading we suggested they tried stopping on a basic CL without even an EHU and after a lot of persuading they agreed to do so, and guess what they had no problems at all and loved the experience as they really don't use much electricity.

So apart from our friends being in a caravan, they are now very much a converted couple to the freedom of basic travel.

Phil

 

[Nabsim]

My van is a year older than yours Dave and it’s all 12, just a few 240v sockets for if you get shore power. Like Trev says 240v charges battery’s to provide lights.
Saying that one of the son in laws worked for Swift (I think he said) years ago and kept trying to tell me everything is 240v lol

 

[wildebus]

My van is a year older than yours Dave and it’s all 12, just a few 240v sockets for if you get shore power. Like Trev says 240v charges battery’s to provide lights.
Saying that one of the son in laws worked for Swift (I think he said) years ago and kept trying to tell me everything is 240v lol

Maybe part of this idea that UK customers are more traditional? Which is why the UK makes have the full cookers and the European ones just have a grill?
Dunno, but I actually like having the 240V lights for some reason and I am also one of those strange people who uses 240V devices and not afraid of that invention of the devil called the "Inverter"

 

[trevskoda]

Cannot find anything thats 230v i require in my van apart from a small 500w electric heater for winter outside my home to which i have one socket to power it beside the mains input to charger.

 

[Nabsim]

I think that a lot of the 240v kit being fitted was because most buyers only use camp sites/ehu in caravans and motorhomes. Easier (and cheaper I guess) to cross over with parts. Foreign makers probably had a lot more buyers off grid so did more with 12v.
This isn’t very scientific though just based on your van and my van but it makes sense in my head Dave lol