Will I regret a Ducato (etc) camper conversion?

[HarryInHudds]

Hello everyone:
We've had a VW T5 for about 8 years, and have a hankering for a little bit more space. (SWB tin-top with std side conversion, with loads of tinkering to make it more practical and accessible).
It will be used for daily driving, if its not biking weather and Mrs Harry needs the car. It then get used for probably a 3 week trip plus a couple of 5-7 dayers per year.
We predominately wild camp or use Aires etc, for the freedom and to avoid tuggers as much as any cost saving.

So I'm thinking MWB Ducato (or Cit/Pug). Probably low roof, but still wanting a campervan, i.e. not a motorhome. On paper it works -mpg (T5: av c36mpg), and weight similar; but gains from doubling the storage, bigger bed, getting a shower facility etc. But will I regret it as a driver's choice?
Obviously a Ducato is wider, and I do go down any lane I can. Will it be a pain?
Will it be much slower ? (-current T5 has been mapped to c170bhp - but I now consider this unnecessary). I'd have thought 2.3/2.2l and 130bhp should be fine if under 3ton.
Will the raised driving position help, or hinder?

I'm sure many other builders have made a similar jump - what we're your feelings?

ps anyone know of free Solidworks cad models for Sevel van bodies?

 

[Millie Master]

Hi @HarryInHudds

The real bonus of the Sevel vans is that you can have a bed running across the width of the van which frees up an enormous amount of space.

If you can, I would only go for the H2 version which are in far more demand so you will have far more choice, the advantage with them being decent standing headroom whereas the H1 is a back braking stooper.

The Sevel vans all drive well although arguably not in the same way as your T5, but you can most certainly keep up with the flow of the traffic.

Another big advantage is that the Sevel vans have all had fully dip galvanised bodies since the model year 2007.

And all that praise coming from a dedicated Renault Master supporter!!

Phil

 

[activecampers]

I've MH2 (MWB) new ducato - 160ps - so don't worry about the power
Yes higher. Last van was an NV200 (low) previous transit (high). Yes height makes a bit of difference, but not show stopper.
MH2 (with air assist air suspension) isn't overly big or hard to drive. Quite relaxing.

 

[wildebus]

Hi @HarryInHudds

The real bonus of the Sevel vans is that you can have a bed running across the width of the van which frees up an enormous amount of space.

If you can, I would only go for the H2 version which are in far more demand so you will have far more choice, the advantage with them being decent standing headroom whereas the H1 is a back braking stooper.

The Sevel vans all drive well although arguably not in the same way as your T5, but you can most certainly keep up with the flow of the traffic.

Another big advantage is that the Sevel vans have all had fully dip galvanised bodies since the model year 2007.

And all that praise coming from a dedicated Renault Master supporter!!

Phil

I have had VW vans, including a VW T5 (2.5L Red 'i' (150BHP?) ) and a VW LT 2.8 158BHP LWB, plus a Renault Master MM (100DCi) and a Ducato 2.3L 130BHP....

The T5 was a nice drive as well - It was a LWB tin-top but as a 'home from home' it was not great really as just could not stand up.
The LT was not as good as the T5 by any means - it is a bit of a truck, but at least I could stand up when I got to where I was going! That alone was worth putting up with the more pedantic drive.
Not got many miles at all under my belt in the Ducato (1 week of ownership today!) but I think it is a nice drive and I am sure I will enjoy it despite the width and >3M height. The extra width of the "Motorhome" style rear box compared to a "Camper" built from a Panel Van makes in my mind a big difference. Only been a week as I said in my first coachbuilt style Motorhome but that extra space is fantastic!
(and I have found over the years that actually I DON'T choose to go down narrow lanes on adventures anyway. Don't in the vans and didn't even do that in any of my 4WDs either, so the width not a big factor to me personally, although is for others of course)

Finally the Renault Master.... Was a MWB, Medium Height one from 2010. Wasn't a camper but I could stand up in it (just) even with the fitted Altro floor and I loved driving it and better than the T5 I think (a few years between using the vehicles so bit of recollection there).
If you want to stick to a panel van size vehicle and something a little 'thinner' than a Ducato, then a Renault Master would I reckon be an excellent choice.

 

[Millie Master]

My daily driver is a BMW 1 Series, I also own a cherished very low mileage MGF and then I have my 'Millie' and quite amazingly out of the 3 of them, I get more enjoyment out of driving her than either of the others even with 130k miles under her wheels!

But if I were to convert another van, I think I would go for a Sevel van purely because they have the slightly wider body as well as, and far more importantly, it being a body that has nigh on vertical sides which makes the conversion one hell of a lot easier to undertake........ Although, having driven various versions of these vans over many thousands of miles, I am afraid to say that in my opinion the Renault Master is a far better and more comfortable vehicle to drive.

Phil

 

[HarryInHudds]

Thanks for all the views, interesting about the Master as a "good drive"- I'd sort of ignored them as the underpinnings look ancient (similarly I also discounted LDV /Maxus's), and most of the recent Masters are goddamm ugly (sorry). I'm not vain about my motors, but I have limits!
I do realise the snub-nose means you get more usable length. Conversely the long cab on the Sprinters seems to cost about a foot of internal space, I'd really like to stay sub 5.5m to fit on our drive and get the garage or back doors open, as well as in town car parks.

In our case we wouldn't sleep across, in our 50's we need to be able to get up during the night without waking the other. [ I recently met a couple with a brand new 5.4 m Fiat Hymercar, where the chap slept in the roof tent as the 4' bed was too cramped...]
However from an early 80's Trafic I used to have I realised the key width is at shoulder height - so the Sevel scores well.
We're short-rses (5'6") so I reckon I merely need to nod my head to stand up in a low roof van -so we were thinking the reduced presence would be useful for wild-camping, as well as in mpg and wind effects on the motorway. Even then I doubt I'll get under any height barriers, as we do now.
I'll probably need to be more careful about where we do go, as an ex LR owner I'm happy to take the T5 a couple of miles down a a dirt track, though not the 1 inch either side between stone walls I did in the Landy. Or have gorse hedges scratch the side glass on both sides :-0

I'm not worried by mileage, if its a dependable package. Our T5 is on 235k-I was sort of hoping to get to 300 -and there's currently no reason why not once you assume DMFs and turbos to be service items. This is probably the start of a another topic, viz best engines, best years for emission control pain, body rot tendencies etc. Rust seems to be another vote against an older Sprinter for a long term bet.

 

[Millie Master]

@HarryInHudds I know of a few Master/Movanos ambulances that have done over 500k on the same engine and gearbox, so my 'Millie' at 130k is almost still running in!
Fuel consumption on my 2.5 dCi 100 is almost always in the mid 30's, however on one 5,000 mile tour of France I got it to nudge 40mpg average throughout the entire trip, but mind you I never went onto an autoroute and (for a change) I religiously adhered to all speed limits.

As for rust, the entire Renault/Vauxhall/Nissan Master etc. range started to have fully galvanised bodies from the 2004 model year onwards, so unless they have had accident damage rust isn't a cause for concern. Whilst talking about the dread tin worm and other makes, the Italian built Sevel ranges of vans became fully galvanised from the 2007 model year onwards.
As for the Sprinter/Crafter vans, finally and at long overdue last, these vans became hot dip dumped from the latest models introduction, but I have read of a few cases of these latest vans already showing signs of rust which of course Mercedes are disputing as they always do!!

Phil

 

[wildebus]

@HarryInHudds I know of a few Master/Movanos ambulances that have done over 500k on the same engine and gearbox, so my 'Millie' at 130k is almost still running in!
Fuel consumption on my 2.5 dCi 100 is almost always in the mid 30's, however on one 5,000 mile tour of France I got it to nudge 40mpg average throughout the entire trip, but mind you I never went onto an autoroute and (for a change) I religiously adhered to all speed limits.

As for rust, the entire Renault/Vauxhall/Nissan Master etc. range started to have fully galvanised bodies from the 2004 model year onwards, so unless they have had accident damage rust isn't a cause for concern. Whilst talking about the dread tin worm and other makes, the Italian built Sevel ranges of vans became fully galvanised from the 2007 model year onwards.
As for the Sprinter/Crafter vans, finally and at long overdue last, these vans became hot dip dumped from the latest models introduction, but I have read of a few cases of these latest vans already showing signs of rust which of course Mercedes are disputing as they always do!!

Phil

here is an intriging snippet ....
Last May (2019) I scrapped the corner of my front wheel arch on my 2003 VW LT (VW version of the original Sprinter) on a hidden wall when turning on a very (VERY!) steep road. took the paint off and down to the metal
I have still not yet got around to fixing it (bad boy!) but ..... there is no rust on the exposed metal. It has not discoloured at all!
Now behind the B Pillar (apart from the end corner panels for different lights) is all Mercedes, but Wings and Cab Doors are VW. I wonder if the VW Parts are galvanised?

 

[Nabsim]

We are talking about commercial and here. They are supposed to get thrashed to death, a used the. Replaced. Do t think any of them are designed for long life are they?0
Isn’t it up to the owner to treat it?

 

[Millie Master]

I wonder if the VW Parts are galvanised?

Dave;
I did hear once that it was an optional extra to have Crafters treated

 

[mark61]

Dave;
I did hear once that it was an optional extra to have Crafters treated

Wonder why Mercedes would do that?

 

[HarryInHudds]

I'd hope manufacturers build for users other than DHL, teararsing around. There must be plenty of plumbers, who only drive a couple times a day, and expect it to last. Anyway I thought the German economy was based on them buying new every year of two, then selling on to Poland and Czech, who sell on to Romania or Belarus, and then on into Africa etc. Maybe they rely on having a drier climate as they move south? (This is probably why the UK runs lots of old vehicles. Germany might have new eco -ones, doesn't mean the old ones are off the road - they just exported the problem!)

 

[Millie Master]

Your post above makes sense @HarryInHudds, I used to live in France where cars and vans simply don't depreciate like they do in other countries, most especially the UK.
Because of this and as I preferred driving a RHD vehicle over there (as I felt it was safer to be as far away as possible from the French idiots coming in the opposite direction on country roads where they always hogged the middle of the road...........) as this was the case I used to sell my vehicles onto other ex-pats over there and come back to the UK to buy my next ones, be that my daily driver, the vans or indeed my Land Rovers.

I knew a very large number of French and other nationals who lived over in France who used to go to either Spain or Holland to buy their 2nd hand vehicles as their resale prices were thousands of €'s cheaper than the prices being asked for similar vehicles in France.

 

[Jas900]

I'm in a similar postion, sold a t25 high top recently so now looking for a " new van" looked at a few masters which have been ex nhs patient transport vans converted . 2 I've looked at have had rust around the factory fitted windows. Is this normal for these vans. Rest of the body has looked brand new on both a 06 and 09 reg.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I have the original build sheets for Murky and Betty ( T2/LN1 and Vario ) Both had the option for anti corrosion treatment, but never received it.
Just been looking at buying a new Vito and it's not on the options.

 

[wildebus]

I'm in a similar postion, sold a t25 high top recently so now looking for a " new van" looked at a few masters which have been ex nhs patient transport vans converted . 2 I've looked at have had rust around the factory fitted windows. Is this normal for these vans. Rest of the body has looked brand new on both a 06 and 09 reg.

Are you sure they are factory fitted? My VW LT was a minibus.co.uk Minibus conversation for a County Council, destined to be so from day 1. However, despite that, it was built at the factory as a Panel Van and had the windows installed after. It seems strange to me but I suppose there was a reason for it and I doubt that it is unique.

 

[mark61]

Are you sure they are factory fitted? My VW LT was a minibus.co.uk Minibus conversation for a County Council, destined to be so from day 1. However, despite that, it was built at the factory as a Panel Van and had the windows installed after. It seems strange to me but I suppose there was a reason for it and I doubt that it is unique.

Yes, I think you are right. Most welfare type mini buses are converted in UK from factory panel vans.

 

[wildebus]

Yes, I think you are right. Most welfare type mini buses are converted in UK from factory panel vans.

I had a VW T4 Ex-Motability vehicle as well which had windows all round, and that was converted (badly) by Versa (Bristol Street Motors speciality division) from a Windowless Panel Van.
I am thinking as all these vehicles CAN be ordered with and factory-made with Windows, if it is something to do with VAT reclamation on Commercial Vehicles compared to Passenger Vehicles? (my LT was registered many many months before it went into service from the history I have on it, so would have been registered as a Commercial before its conversion)

 

[makaveli7]

Hi Wildebus,
I hope you are well. a new member to the forum and I am sorry if Iam hijacking this thread.
I come accross your detailed electric water heater. hat off mate. you did an amazing job as I was craving for the data you published. I very much like the details and your approach about finding alternative to the overpriced fridges, hearers...
I am about to instal an Ariston Andirx Lux ( apprantly an upgrade from the one used as it is A rated).
I am eager to find out how did you find out the heater overall? I am interested to look at the heat loss data. let say if the heater reach the desired temperture how long can it hold for?

 

[Millie Master]

I'm in a similar postion, sold a t25 high top recently so now looking for a " new van" looked at a few masters which have been ex nhs patient transport vans converted . 2 I've looked at have had rust around the factory fitted windows. Is this normal for these vans. Rest of the body has looked brand new on both a 06 and 09 reg.

As I have written before on this thread all the Master/Movano/Nissan?? had fully galvanised bodies from the 2004 model year onwards.

One of the most important jobs for us converters to do when we cut holes in the sides or the roofs of our galvanised vans is to throughy smooth down the cut edges and then treat the metal to a few liberal coats of a suitable paint.

Patently, the vast majority of we self builders will take care when doing these important jobs whereas a penny pinching professional converter of panel vans to ambulance etc. is very unlikely to do so!
By exactly the same token, having looked very closely at the way some of the most expensive of the UK built panel conversions are put together, i.e. terrible levels of insulation, patchy use of fabrics, terrible joints in hidden timber areas, I have often wondered if the likes of Swift Group (who have a terrible quality and aftermarket customer care record), Bayley etc. etc., I wonder if their panel cut lines have been fully treated?

Phil