Seat belts in bus and coach conversions.

[SquirrellCook]

I won't go to heavily into the details, but with Murky's last MOT I was told It had to have a drivers seat belt. It had never had one from the day it was built.
So one of the next steps was to talk to DVSA inspectors who warned against fitting a drivers seat belt to a vehicle not designed to have one.
Eventually we found out due to it's age, weight and configuration it does not need a drivers or any seat belts!
So even more confussed my thoughts turned to Betty, the new project.
It is a 2000 model Plaxton Cheetha and has a drivers lap strap.
Much later Plaxton Beavers don't have a drivers seat belt! confussing?
So a letter was sent to Alexander Dennis (plaxton) asking why? and this was the answer.

In case you have not managed to seek answers to this elsewhere, the explanation is as follows.

Vehicles with a top speed under 60mph are considered buses according to UK Construction and Use and Certificate of Initial Fitness. Buses were not required to be fitted with seat belts under UK law.

Certain Cheetah vehicles in early 2000’s were specified with seatbelts and thus were fitted with driver seat belt as well.

As the Cheetah design developed, it was approved as a Coach (speed restriction of 59mph removed), fully compliant with rollover strength for R66, and falling within the scope for mandatory fitment of seat belts throughout the vehicle.

So not only should it have a seat belt, it's also safe to roll over!
If thinking of a Beaver for conversion, check it's top speed. It might be slower than expected.

 

[wildebus]

Interesting.
I must say I would not feel comfortable driving a vehicle on the road WITHOUT a speed belt, regardless of the legalities of it not being mandatory.

Are you intending to fit a 3-point belt at all? They can be fitted fully to the seat rather than any part of the vehicle itself in the same way as the movable minibus seatbelts are fitted.


As an aside, quite a while ago I had a girlfriend who wanted to change her car and she found a brand-new Ford Escort for sale at a good price - now this was back in 1991. However the car was built in 1985. So had no Rear Seat Belts as not required when the car was built. But then 1994 comes round and the car fails its MOT on no rear seat belts .

 

[SquirrellCook]

I must say I would not feel comfortable driving a vehicle on the road WITHOUT a speed belt, regardless of the legalities of it not being mandatory.

The DVSA inspectors did suggest that being unrestrained should make you drive more carefully.

The drivers seat I would like to replace/repair as it is an air seat that pins you to the steering wheel when inflated. Then when you hit a bump in the road you operate the throttle as you descend! Entertaining, not really.
The seat manufacturer does offer a version of the same seat with a 3 point belt, but want an awful lot of money for one.

The habitation seats will comply with Bus/Coach seat mounting recommendation, easy on the Cheetah as there are some hefty steel sections running the length of the floor for mounting coach seat rails. The final body mounts uses the rear redundant spring mounts, so that's tough.
The problem lies with the co-drivers seat. It's a fold up seat with a lap strap. It's also in the way of how I want to enter the habitation area.
An idea it to fabricate a new base for it and mount it beside and a little behind the drivers seat. Though there is no structure here as Plaxton removed it.

I think with cars of that age were built with seat belt mounting points, though not used for the uk market. So in was expected you retrofitted them. That may also explain why it was so easy to buy seat belts then.

 

[wildebus]

The DVSA inspectors did suggest that being unrestrained should make you drive more carefully.

The drivers seat I would like to replace/repair as it is an air seat that pins you to the steering wheel when inflated. Then when you hit a bump in the road you operate the throttle as you descend! Entertaining, not really.
The seat manufacturer does offer a version of the same seat with a 3 point belt, but want an awful lot of money for one.

The habitation seats will comply with Bus/Coach seat mounting recommendation, easy on the Cheetah as there are some hefty steel sections running the length of the floor for mounting coach seat rails. The final body mounts uses the rear redundant spring mounts, so that's tough.
The problem lies with the co-drivers seat. It's a fold up seat with a lap strap. It's also in the way of how I want to enter the habitation area.
An idea it to fabricate a new base for it and mount it beside and a little behind the drivers seat. Though there is no structure here as Plaxton removed it.

I think with cars of that age were built with seat belt mounting points, though not used for the uk market. So in was expected you retrofitted them. That may also explain why it was so easy to buy seat belts then.

I've heard that kind of comment before about making you drive more carefully. along with "fit a spike in the middle instead of an airbag". Doesn't help when you have to contend with the other idiots on the road though

Ref the co-drivers seat ... this is something that has made me pass along when looking at some bus conversions of panel vans - the hassle of getting a decent and comfortable passenger seat there....

 

[Squiffy]

Interesting.
I must say I would not feel comfortable driving a vehicle on the road WITHOUT a speed belt, regardless of the legalities of it not being mandatory.

Are you intending to fit a 3-point belt at all? They can be fitted fully to the seat rather than any part of the vehicle itself in the same way as the movable minibus seatbelts are fitted.


As an aside, quite a while ago I had a girlfriend who wanted to change her car and she found a brand-new Ford Escort for sale at a good price - now this was back in 1991. However the car was built in 1985. So had no Rear Seat Belts as not required when the car was built. But then 1994 comes round and the car fails its MOT on no rear seat belts .

Dave I am aware that you and I lock horns on some of these subjects on occasions and on this one I fully admit that I am probably in the minority. But I feel that I must put in my feeble twopence worth. Seat belts are to me an anathema years ago, more than I care to think about, I used to ride my bikes be it Triumph or Norton at speed, yes terrible wasn't it and without a helmet or armour plated clothing, but I lived the dream " I had a dream " but now a days I have to by law use a helmet and am expected to wear armour plated clothing that weighs down on me and restricts my pleasure, if I died tomorrow at least I could say I've lived " My dream" all be it 40 years ago, I now go out on my bike with all the encomberance that I have to wear by " LAW" What a shame yes if I ended up in A&E through an accident it costs the country in general but was the accident my fault, that would be debatable, in the same light I bought up my family of eight children through the years of no seat belts and all of them survive and have given me nine grand children, for that I am thankful but it certainly was not the nanny state that helped towards my present position. Phil

 

[wildebus]

Bikes are great fun However I'm a little put off them by the experiences of my brother.... airlifted home twice - once from India and once from Spain - after coming off them.
I used to wear a back protector when I rode my bike and decided life might be too short after a prang and gave up (one of my colleagues at the time used to take having an accident and knocking himself out once a month as par for the course though, so I guess it takes all sorts )

 

[Squiffy]

My wife and I still "live the Dream" Dave, even though I have to adere to the Nanny state. As they say you could die of natural causes any second anyway . Phil

 

[SquirrellCook]

Ref the co-drivers seat ... this is something that has made me pass along when looking at some bus conversions of panel vans - the hassle of getting a decent and comfortable passenger seat there....

I guess if you really must a seat besides the driver it does involve more work. Even mounting a single seat has to be thought about.
Does it interfere with access to the habitation area, can the driver still negotiate the gear lever and if it's got air brakes that little knob can be uncomfortable is mounted to the left of the seat.
My 608's access was via the front passenger door. The dash was cut away for the fridge to be mounted besides the engine. The drivers step was filled with fuel filter and change over valves for its twin 75 gallon tanks. So two twin seats were for passengers with one being reversible and also convertible into a bed.
Murky had all it's hand rails in place for some years and it just made it easier to get in and out, so I never thought about a front passenger seat. Though there is a front storage box that can be sat on.

If you were keen on a little more fabrication you could loose the entrance door all together. The step space could be used for batteries or heaters.
You'd then be able to mount the passenger seat to the left and make entering the cab easier.
Once you have chosen your new entry point a lighter, simpler door could be made with entry steps build into the body.
You do loose a lot of space with this option. They may look big empty, but soon fill up.

 

[wildebus]

Cheers It just seems a bit anti-social to have the one seat at the front if you are travelling as a couple? For a singleton traveller, no worries, or if travelling with family, they could all sit together (and leave the driver in peace!)

 

[SquirrellCook]

It just seems a bit anti-social to have the one seat at the front if you are travelling as a couple?

Yes it's much easier to row if you are close to each other. You know, you went to fast, you went the wrong way and of course "don't feed me that it makes the steering wheel slippery!"

 

[GEOFF]

My MK2 satnav(copilot) has all of those features at no extra cost. Geoff.

 

[trevskoda]

My camper was a lib bus,built 1997 but first reg 2000,failed first time at mot on belts,went home read the regs,if wooden floor then mot cannot test,anything built upto 2006 belts can be tested,after that a under floor plate made to v construction and use regs must be fitted if a steel floor.
Front seats must have full 3 point belts and or a centre seat can have a lap belt if no part of a body can strike the dash/screen or other hard opjects.
Side facing seats are now a no no with insurance co altho wear ok if built in the eightys.
After 2012 all seats for convayance should be marked as such<eu regs> but as no set standard is in place the mot cannot fail a van/bus.
Now i think with us maybe leaving eu some things may change again,its a mine field going through the regs but my bus passed even though reged as a motorcaravan,and with a wood floor,but i made under floor brackets across chassis struts,belts are then built into the taxy seats i fitted.

 

[wildebus]

It should be noted that the MOT regulations and standards are to a minimal quality. Even if something is good enough for an MOT doesn't neccessarily good enough for day to day use.
A good example is Tyres ... got 1.6mm of tread on your tyres and you're golden But how many responsible people look at that level of tread and think "woo hoo. sorted"? Most look at changing at 3mm (which I think is the legal minimum in Germany and other European countries anyway?)
Seat Belts are - IMHO, although I know some others have other opinions - in the same area. Trevskoda didn't have to do anything about seatbelts but top marks for him to making his van safer than the legal minimum for his own and his families safety

 

[trevskoda]

One thing i have seen in vans is a fire ex bolted with a clip to forward facing wall,in a crash it will come out and either hid someone or go out the front screen,do put them on a rear facing wall and if pos fit a click strap round them which will keep them in but easy to open if required,nothing should be left loose in rear of van,S/wheels bikes /gas bottles etc.