John Guest ?

[Millie Master]

Another question- should I get & insert these collets in the joints
View attachment 919

Never seen them before silly arse that I am, but I don't have them on my pipes and in my installation at least, so far, I don't have any leaks.....

If you want to use them Vic then do so, but as Phil (Squiffy) says, they would be an absolute pain to try to ever remove.

Phil

 

[wildebus]

I like my barbed connections with the plastic pipe secure with jubilee clip and either warm to remove or just snip off and remake as appropriate.

 

[m0j0]

Hi Guys. Hope this post has not dried up. Just doing a van fit and considering the water pipe system as discussed above. Some weeks ago I thought naturally I will use the standard household plumbing barrier pipe (10mm) as much discussed here . Then I reading somewhere that this could introduce undue noise into the system transmitted from the pump - so flexible or semi-rigid pipe should be used. This gave me an uncomforatable feeling about using barrier pipe which was reinforced by the fact that few motorhome/caravan fitting suppliers sell anything other than flexi or semi-rigid pipe & fittings. Does anyone have experience of such bad vibes from pumps when using barrier pipe, or is it hearsay or poor pump installation/isolation that might have caused the suggested problem. This said any advise on pump fitting (say Surflow 20 psi) and minimising potential for bad vibes?

 

[Squiffy]

Hi,
Well I do have to say that in my view rigid plumbing always transmits noise far more easily than semi rigid or completely flexible pipe work, plus the fact that if you have done any home improvements on gas or water plumbing recently you will have noticed the horrendous price of copper pipe and fittings which has risen many fold over the last few years, so infact the cost of semi ridged pipe and fittings could and probably does end up a cheaper and far better option. With a vehicle travelling over bumpy roads ( I can tell you that some of the roads in North Poland are unbelievable) the rigidity of copper piping would come under a far greater strain than a flexible alternative. Phil

 

[Millie Master]

If my memory serves me correctly I used 8 mm push fit water pipe throughout my installation, the reason being that there is far less wasted water when turning on the hot tap as well as of course the ease of fitting it.
As for people using copper pipe, apart from the cost, I would always be concerned about the durability of silver soldered joints as it isn't the strongest of jointing mediums at the best of times let alone when subjected to the vibration caused by vehicle movement.

Phil

 

[m0j0]

Thanks Squiffy. Must admit I wasn't considering copper pipe, rather the PE-X, or polybutylene plastic barrier pipe so there would be small amount of flexibility, though still pretty stiff. I agree about the stresses that copper pipe might come under.

 

[Squiffy]

Have to admit I'd never heard of barrier pipe and assumed you were talking copper pipe, had to go on google and look it up, Phil

 

[m0j0]

If my memory serves me correctly I used 8 mm push fit water pipe throughout my installation, the reason being that there is far less wasted water when turning on the hot tap as well as of course the ease of fitting it.
As for people using copper pipe, apart from the cost, I would always be concerned about the durability of silver soldered joints as it isn't the strongest of jointing mediums at the best of times let alone when subjected to the vibration caused by vehicle movement.

Phil

Yes, good idea to use smaller bore for hot water, particularly if the run length is quite long, as others suggested above.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I’m in this pipe dilemma now with the Betty build. Murky has copper with Yorkshire soldered fittings. Push fit domestic plastic. Automotive rubber hoses and steel pipes.
I have pump noise. I extract my water from the top of the stainless steel tank with copper pipe. This changes quickly to domestic as there is less risk of frost damage. The rest of the hot and cold water system is in domestic plastic until it enters the wet room. It then reverts to copper as it’s cleaner fitting. In over ten years, no problems.
The hot engine water is another story. Ridged pipe is mainly steel with the connections to the Tee’s, valves and isolators being in copper. The very long run is in automotive rubber as is much of the short runs. Repairs and upgrades have been done in silicon hose. I have caught some old rubber hose bulging, giving me the chance to replace it.
To get the engine water to the back of Betty for the Calorifier and heating, I’m going to do the long runs in 22mm copper using silicone hose for bends and connections.
The domestic water will be plastic and copper again, though trying to find some softer hose to connect to the pump.
One thing to remember is that the plastic fittings are very small bore.

 

[m0j0]

I’m in this pipe dilemma now with the Betty build. Murky has copper with Yorkshire soldered fittings. Push fit domestic plastic. Automotive rubber hoses and steel pipes.
I have pump noise. I extract my water from the top of the stainless steel tank with copper pipe. This changes quickly to domestic as there is less risk of frost damage. The rest of the hot and cold water system is in domestic plastic until it enters the wet room. It then reverts to copper as it’s cleaner fitting. In over ten years, no problems.
The hot engine water is another story. Ridged pipe is mainly steel with the connections to the Tee’s, valves and isolators being in copper. The very long run is in automotive rubber as is much of the short runs. Repairs and upgrades have been done in silicon hose. I have caught some old rubber hose bulging, giving me the chance to replace it.
To get the engine water to the back of Betty for the Calorifier and heating, I’m going to do the long runs in 22mm copper using silicone hose for bends and connections.
The domestic water will be plastic and copper again, though trying to find some softer hose to connect to the pump.
One thing to remember is that the plastic fittings are very small bore.

I would just say just be sure all pipe and fittings are food/potable grade. Don't care much for the thought of that automotive rubber.

 

[SquirrellCook]

I would just say just be sure all pipe and fittings are food/potable grade. Don't care much for the thought of that automotive rubber.

Don't ever connect your engine coolant water to your domestic supply!

 

[Millie Master]

When considering engine coolant, I presume this will have quite a high level of some kind of antifreeze diluted in it, if that is the case, then I am not sure how it will get on with copper pipes?

 

[SquirrellCook]

When considering engine coolant, I presume this will have quite a high level of some kind of antifreeze diluted in it, if that is the case, then I am not sure how it will get on with copper pipes?

I try to run a minimum of 50/50 water ethylene glycol. To date I have not seen any problems with copper.

 

[mistericeman]

When considering engine coolant, I presume this will have quite a high level of some kind of antifreeze diluted in it, if that is the case, then I am not sure how it will get on with copper pipes?

Most car radiator cores were made of copper with brass tanks... (until we retrograded to aluminium and plastic crap)
Shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Nabsim]

Just a thought, how are you going to clamp the silicone on the copper? Presumably the copper will be quite thin wall so are you fitting some sort of insert? My engine coolant pipes are all run in the same rubber hose used in the engine bay for coolant, at a guess about an inch bore.

My domestic water is a pressurised system with the Sureflo pump attached to the wooden frame that goes round the cold water tank. All pipes are run in domestic synthetic pipe but dont know what its called, the flexi stuff anyway, my pump is noisy when it kicks in but rarely runs very long

 

[SquirrellCook]

I haven't used this company, but it's the same sort of thing. https://www.viperperformance.co.uk/36_silicone-hoses.html

It's funny that Betty had some silicone hoses already fitted. The hoses were as new, the hose clamps had rotted away.

 

[ScoTTyBEEE]

I used 15mm flexible pex from screwfix/toolstation. They carry a much bigger range of the 15mm push fit connectors, and almost nothing for 10mm. You'll find you'll need to run back and forth a few times for extra bits here and there so it's easier to just go for the most universal fittings. Also helps if you need a fix on the road/abroad. The amount of water in a run of 15mm vs 10mm pipe for instant hot water can't be a concern in a van surely? Also pipe inserts are a few quid, you'd be crazy not to use them.

 

[Millie Master]

The amount of water in a run of 15mm vs 10mm pipe for instant hot water can't be a concern in a van surely?

When considering the installation of a water system into any of our vans, unless an enormous fresh water tank is fitted, then water wastage should be avoided at all costs!

I haven't calculated the different capacity/flow rate between one diameter pipe and another, but I do know that it is very considerable, as this is the case, then the smaller the internal diameter of the pipe then the better and............. At any good builders or plumbers merchants, they will always stock large quantities of flexible pipes and fittings in different sizes and that is exactly where I bought the 8 mm pipe I fitted.

As a bench mark and harking back to my motor sport, engine tuning days when considering the dear old Cooper 'S', they came as standard with twin 1 1/4" carbs, a simple and easy performance upgrade was to ditch the twin carbs and fit a single 1 1/2" carb as it passed considerably more air through it than the standard twin carbs!!

Phil

 

[Deleted member 4404]

If my memory serves me correctly I used 8 mm push fit water pipe throughout my installation, the reason being that there is far less wasted water when turning on the hot tap as well as of course the ease of fitting it.
As for people using copper pipe, apart from the cost, I would always be concerned about the durability of silver soldered joints as it isn't the strongest of jointing mediums at the best of times let alone when subjected to the vibration caused by vehicle movement.

Phil

Phil, silver solder is used on engine components and you don't get more vibration than there. I think you mean soft solder as used in domestic plumbing

 

[ScoTTyBEEE]

When considering the installation of a water system into any of our vans, unless an enormous fresh water tank is fitted, then water wastage should be avoided at all costs!

I haven't calculated the different capacity/flow rate between one diameter pipe and another, but I do know that it is very considerable, as this is the case, then the smaller the internal diameter of the pipe then the better and............. At any good builders or plumbers merchants, they will always stock large quantities of flexible pipes and fittings in different sizes and that is exactly where I bought the 8 mm pipe I fitted.

As a bench mark and harking back to my motor sport, engine tuning days when considering the dear old Cooper 'S', they came as standard with twin 1 1/4" carbs, a simple and easy performance upgrade was to ditch the twin carbs and fit a single 1 1/2" carb as it passed considerably more air through it than the standard twin carbs!!

Phil

I worked it out as this is a question in need of an answer. I've based it upon a 4 meter run which should be adequate for most vans since we're only talking about the hot water pipe.

15mm volume: 0.71L
10mm volume: 0.31L
8mm volume: 0.2L

so you'd have to run through an extra 0.4L of water (more than double) when using 15 instead of 10.
If your runs are under a couple of meters then you can probably not worry about it too much.