Do you carry a scooter or motorbike in your garage?

#21
No the person was taken to task as the vh should be classed as a recover wagon and not a motorhome,damed if i can find the web site.:cry:
I can't recall the details but I know there is a bit of a common thing regarding some people with recovery vehicles actually incorrectly - and deliberately - registering their vehicle classification to avoid some legislation (as said, can't recall exactly what).

There is an argument that some Motorhomes should actually be classified as "Living Vans" but can't see a bike making it a Recovery Vehicle unless that is what it is. Was the bike owned by the MH owner? Was he getting paid by someone to bring their bike back? I think more facts are needed (as opposed to claims by an aggrieved person)
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#22
3 years ago I wrote to VOSA over clarification on 13 month mot status as their explanation on their site was ambiguous, I got a reply from them with clarification and a change to their written explanation on their web site, I might add that they changed the wording to how I had originally determined it, this was over a similar discussion on another m/h site might even have been DIY but I can't remember. Maybe someone can do the same process over this business of carrying a motorbike. Phil
 
#23
might even have been DIY but I can't remember. Maybe someone can do the same process over this business of carrying a motorbike. Phil
As you have the experience Phil and the knowledge on how to effectively contact the frosty VOSA, can you by any chance become the flag waver on this very exacting topic?
Phil
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#24
Ok Phil, I'll email them tomorrow and put the question. Just thought somebody would take up the battle flag, but we'll see what they say. Phil
 


Squiffy

Full Member
#25
Ok folks I've email ( VOSA ) DVSA, and asked the definative answer to this question of carrying a motor cycle in the garage. I will publish their answer to this thread. Phil
 


Squiffy

Full Member
#26
Right folks I have had a reply from DVSA, and is as follows,

Dear Mr Day



Thank you for your email dated 3 February 2019, concerning carrying a motorised scooter in a motorhome.



DVSA can only provide advice for the MOT regulations, and, for the purpose of the MOT test, your vehicle is likely to be classed as a living van if it is carrying a motorcycle in a carrier at its rear.



A 'Motor Caravan' has installed equipment and facilities necessary for the vehicle to provide living accommodation and which only carries goods needed for the purposes of residence in the vehicle (e.g. sufficient food for expected length of holiday, cycles, surfboards etc). They could even carry something like a scooter, if is used for the purpose of residence in the vehicle (the scooter could be used for shopping because of the size of the caravan). Regardless of weight, they would come under Class IV.



Living Vans are vehicles used for carrying goods which are NOT needed for the purposes of residence in the motor caravan (e.g. a motor caravan used as a van to carry quantities of goods from one place to another, or a motor caravan which also has an area set aside to carry horses). These vehicles can be tested as Class IV, VII or HGV depending on the Design Gross Weight.



Section 192 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 defines ‘goods’ as ‘goods or burden of any description’. As such, ‘goods’ is not a term restricted solely to items carried for gain or reward. It is our view, therefore, that bikes or cars carried in a designated area on a vehicle should be regarded as goods and that vehicles which have the capacity to carry such items within them have to be regarded as living vans and not motor caravans.



Smaller living vans (under 3,500kgs) can be MOT tested as Class IV or Class VII vehicles depending on their weight. The first MOT test would be required from the third year following registration and then every year thereafter. However, many living vans are outside the scope of MOT testing as they exceed 3,500kgs in weight. These heavier living vans should be tested at a DVSA goods vehicle testing station under the Goods Vehicles (Plating and Testing) Regulations 1988. Such vehicles must be tested annually from the first year following registration.



For further information on the legality of carrying a motorcycle on a carrier, you will need to address your enquiry to the Department for Transport, as they deal with the Construction and Use Regulations and Road Law.



The Department for Transport can be telephoned on 0300 330 3000, e-mailed (for construction & use requirements) via ivs.enquiries@dft.gsi.gov.ukor you can visit their website here for further contact details.

As you can see if you read between the lines the answer is fairly ambiguous, I feel that I should re- put my question and ask if push bikes in their estimation would be regarded as goods in transit, as in all honesty I can not see the difference between a push bike to enable visitation as opposed to a motorised scooter/motorbike. It seems to me that if you take what they are saying at face value, they are suggesting it is actually down to each DVSA officers personal consideration of the situation. They seem to be hiding behind the fact that it is down to the mot class that you decide to tell the mot inspector and they are not responsible and that it is down to the police to decide, but what they have not advised is that 95% of random checks are instigated by the DVSA and the only reason for police presence is to ensure free movement and compliance to the laws of the Queens highway, it is my understanding that any prosecution is instigated by the DVSA and not the police. I do know that there are various police officers that are qualified to remove vehicles off the road due to non compliance of construction and use but they are few and far between. The reality is that as far as vehicles on the Queens highway is concerned ( VOSA ) DVSA officers have far more powers than Mr Plod. Phil
 


#27
So as i read it ,section 192 is clear as i said, no m/bikes in rear of van,but how many will be caught im thinking,prob very few.
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#28
To add to my last, police officers are not qualified in construction an use, and therefore can only instruct you to go to an mot station to verify that your vehicle comply's to construction and use and if you dont present your vehicle to an mot station within the specified time you can then be prosecuted under that statute, but of course that doesn't mean that you can not argue your case in a court of law against the particular officers point of law. But who has the money or interest to argue their case. Phil
 


#29
To add to my last, police officers are not qualified in construction an use, and therefore can only instruct you to go to an mot station to verify that your vehicle comply's to construction and use and if you dont present your vehicle to an mot station within the specified time you can then be prosecuted under that statute, but of course that doesn't mean that you can not argue your case in a court of law against the particular officers point of law. But who has the money or interest to argue their case. Phil
Well someone has been done in court,so my understanding is that it will be used as a case study for those who follow,also you ins may refuse cover in the event of accident.
All something to ponder on.
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#30
It seems Trev that you and I are the only ones interested in our rights, admittedly we as 3500kg vehicles would probably never carry a motorbike in anycase so it really does not concern us but I have always been a person that stands for the under dog and bureaucratic bullshit, this case seems to me to be full of it , I feel that somebody has to stand and be counted and I am prepared to be that sacrificial goat, so those that dont care beware because big brother is looking over your shoulder and your rights are being eroded. Phil.
 


#31
Yes we stand together about things like this,some times i think people deserve what they get because no one stands up to those who make silly rules.
 
#32
It seems Trev that you and I are the only ones interested in our rights.
I seldom if ever disagree with anything you write Phil, but on this occasion I do as throughout the combined membership of Phil's @Admin 3 sites, there will be countless hundreds if not thousands who carry some kind of bike in their vans, it is simply that they don't know of your sterling efforts with regards to this matter.

You and I are, as you know in email contact with each other on this subject, I feel that now you have some hard information back from the DVSA that we all ought to start making contact with our MP's in a controlled and unified way.

Apart from Phil's (@Admin) forum membership there are countless tens of thousands of other motorhome and campervan owners who quite unknowingly will be breaking the law (as the DVSA see it) and as such, as so rightly suggested by Trev., they could all have insurance policies which would be null and void.

This is such a vitally important matter that I feel it should be flagged up to the two major clubs, namely the Caravan & Motorhome Club and the Caravan & Camping Club.

Your actions so far Phil are so commendable, I openly compliment you for your sterling efforts.

Phil

ps. there are one hell of a lot of Phils' on here!!
 


#33
Yes me to well done that man,people on other sites thought i was nuts but the above confirms for once i am correct in this mater.
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#34
Ok further to an email l sent to DVSA asking for further clarification, this is a reply from a slightly higher authority in the DVSA.

Good morning,



These are the definitions in The Road Vehicles(Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as amended.



motor caravan

a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their

effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are

reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation

for its users.



Living Van,

a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which

is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.



A motorbike is not needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle it is an optional extra so therefore the vehicle carrying a motorbike is a living van and not motorhome.

Those lockers are for carrying items such as an awning and furniture to use in that awning for example. Or a disabled scooter if one of the occupants is disabled.



If you do not like this, and it would appear that you do not, you will need to take it up with your MP to see if you can get that regulation changed.



Regards



Philip Harrison



Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer.
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792454206, Fax 01792 454387

I am obliged to emphasise that this advice is the view of DVSA and is not intended to be an interpretation of the law;
Only a court of law is able to give a legal, definitive interpretation

Find out more about government services at www.gov.uk/dvsa

Though it does not really affect me as l tow a motorbike and don't carry one, this situation could become of a national importance for those that do now and in the future intend to carry one. Or we can leave sleeping dogs and all that.😏Phil
 


Edina

Administrator
#35
Ok further to an email l sent to DVSA asking for further clarification, this is a reply from a slightly higher authority in the DVSA.

Good morning,



These are the definitions in The Road Vehicles(Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as amended.



motor caravan

a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their

effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are

reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation

for its users.



Living Van,

a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which

is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.



A motorbike is not needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle it is an optional extra so therefore the vehicle carrying a motorbike is a living van and not motorhome.

Those lockers are for carrying items such as an awning and furniture to use in that awning for example. Or a disabled scooter if one of the occupants is disabled.



If you do not like this, and it would appear that you do not, you will need to take it up with your MP to see if you can get that regulation changed.



Regards



Philip Harrison



Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer.
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792454206, Fax 01792 454387

I am obliged to emphasise that this advice is the view of DVSA and is not intended to be an interpretation of the law;
Only a court of law is able to give a legal, definitive interpretation

Find out more about government services at www.gov.uk/dvsa

Though it does not really affect me as l tow a motorbike and don't carry one, this situation could become of a national importance for those that do now and in the future intend to carry one. Or we can leave sleeping dogs and all that.😏Phil
That's the most straightforward description I have seen so far - well done (y)
 
#37
One person has as i said already been through court and fined,so the police and vosa/mot men will be happy to nab you on this point,think its time this was on our other forums to keep folk right until this if ever is sorted,me i thing the country has gone mad,main thing is if in a acc and a claim lands on your door step it could wipe you out.
 

Squiffy

Full Member
#38
I have now passed all the details and emails to the Caravan and Motorhome clubs technical dept, they were totally unaware of this situation and have promised to investigate and get back to me. Phil
 


#39
Ok further to an email l sent to DVSA asking for further clarification, this is a reply from a slightly higher authority in the DVSA.

Good morning,



These are the definitions in The Road Vehicles(Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 as amended.



motor caravan

a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their

effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are

reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation

for its users.



Living Van,

a vehicle used primarily as living accommodation by one or more persons, and which

is also used for the carriage of goods or burden which are not needed by such one

or more persons for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle.



A motorbike is not needed for the purpose of their residence in the vehicle it is an optional extra so therefore the vehicle carrying a motorbike is a living van and not motorhome.

Those lockers are for carrying items such as an awning and furniture to use in that awning for example. Or a disabled scooter if one of the occupants is disabled.



If you do not like this, and it would appear that you do not, you will need to take it up with your MP to see if you can get that regulation changed.



Regards



Philip Harrison



Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer.
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792454206, Fax 01792 454387

I am obliged to emphasise that this advice is the view of DVSA and is not intended to be an interpretation of the law;
Only a court of law is able to give a legal, definitive interpretation

Find out more about government services at www.gov.uk/dvsa

Though it does not really affect me as l tow a motorbike and don't carry one, this situation could become of a national importance for those that do now and in the future intend to carry one. Or we can leave sleeping dogs and all that.😏Phil
Phil, it might affect you more than you think?
If carrying a motorbike stops a motor home being a motor caravan, than maybe towing one will as well? and then, as your van + trailer will be over 3.5t, you could be subject to tacho and operator license regulations!
It could be worth a follow up question about both carrying OUTSIDE the van, and towing a bike and see the response.
 


Squiffy

Full Member
#40
I think I'll wait and see what the Caravan club come up with first Wildebus before I go any further 🙂 Phil
 


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